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Tide of Iron» Forums » Rules

Subject: Playtested new house rule for M10 rss

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Dan Brunnström
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Hi again!
I read a lot about the different ideas of the M10, but not so much about wich rule played best.
So I would like to add our experience: For the last three scenarios played, we removed the suppression effect on M10, and changed armor value to 2, as suggested by a few people here. And it played well, no one had the "only one vehicle can be suppressed, why not trucks too? -eye twitch".

Last scenario was "battle in the bocage", as part of Normandy campaign, and it was the second time playing it. A wonderful scenario by the way!

As the Americans I have to be careful of course, keeping the TD:s a little off, and preferably in woods.

I can add more after maybe another five to ten games, but I think we found our simple houserule.
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Marcus A
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Your method of handling the special vulnerability of the M10, in my view, is superior to the idea of trying to apply squad suppression fire to a unique armored vehicle. And it’s true that, although both Sherman and M10 had sloped armor, the M10 was a few tons lighter with somewhat thinner armor than the Sherman. But I don’t think it was enough of a difference to reduce M10 armor from 4 in TOI.

Consider that a Panzer III, rated in TOI at 3 armor, was much lighter (by half) than an M10 tank destroyer, with even thinner armor—especially in the frontal turret and hull areas—where it really counted.

The best idea I’ve heard to model the open turret vulnerability of the M10 is to simply make the vehicle -1 armor if attacked at close range or by an area attack.

It’s simple, intuitive, easy to remember, and models the vulnerability at a good TOI complexity level with fairly good adherence to reality.

To each his own.
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Dan Brunnström
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My german counterpart must be held happy as well, he does not usually respond well to change in rules. So the big downgrade in armor is necessary for us. We also have scenario balance in mind, and the American side don't need more game strength than already exists.
I will keep your variant in mind for use in the future though.
 
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Marcus A
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Your solution is better than the Normandy rule that struggled to handle the open-top vulnerability.

But for general consideration, one problem with simply reducing the armor value of the M10 is that its open turret would not make it easier to knock out than a Sherman for an enemy squad 2 hexes away or an enemy tank, say, 4 or 5 hexes away.

The open turret left the M10 crew vulnerable to two general threats.

1) Artillery and mortar fire and fragments.
Made glaringly clear in the Battle of the Hürtgen Forest.

2) Infantry close assault.
Such as grenades thrown into or near the open turret and enemy troops climbing onto the vehicle. Also particularly dangerous were close quarters attacks from upper story-windows or trees in urban and wooded areas.

That's not to say the open-top turret didn't have its advantages. It provided excellent visibility for targeting, situational awareness and interacting with supporting infantry. It also made escape easier when the M10 was hit and caught fire or was disabled.
 
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Ron H
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I play Memor 44,Tide of Iron, and Axis and Allies:1942!
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When I play with open topped TD's in a different rule system (Memoir 44) I made the house rule that they are vulnerable to sniper fire (which under the rules, armor is not). So I think the reduction in armor doesn't take into account their faster speed, and thus harder to hit when moving. I like the vulnerable to suppressive fire in the game.
 
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