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Brass: Lancashire» Forums » General

Subject: Video previews/playthroughs for 2 players??? rss

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Eric Gingras
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Anyone know if there's going to be a 2 player playthrough video during the KS? I want to see what the improvements are for 2-3 player game setup.

if it's a solid 2-player game, then I'll pledge for sure! Just need to see it first. Rahdo made a comment about this 3 years ago after playing the original game.
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James Moline
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On his last podcast, Rahdo said he thought they were going to send him a copy of the game to do a runthrough for the kickstarter. He didn't sound positive, so take it with a grain of salt, but that's what I'm hoping for.

He did one for Santorini (the publisher's last game), though, so that's probably a good sign.
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glyn spence
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jmoline wrote:
On his last podcast, Rahdo said he thought they were going to send him a copy of the game to do a runthrough for the kickstarter. He didn't sound positive, so take it with a grain of salt, but that's what I'm hoping for.

He did one for Santorini (the publisher's last game), though, so that's probably a good sign.


I must admit my desire for a rahdo run through is to help me decide on if i back at all or if I get Lancashire and/or Birmingham. So hope he has been sent a copy of both games.
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Ola Mikael Hansson
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Yeah, to me it seems the new 2-player rules are the biggest change Roxley are making from previous editions, so really hope they'll give us more information. So far, it's very sparse.
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matt tolman
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Re: 2 player board exclusion.

The choice to not include the previously published 2 player board was never about saving money, as it is easy enough to do a double sided board. One day we were discussing how to support 2 player brass on release, and I said to Gavan, "The problem with including the 2 player board is that it makes the current 3 player game make less sense."

My reasoning was thus: If you need to restrict the board in order to have a better game for 2 players, is it not reasonable to assume that the 3 player game would also benefit from some sort of restriction as well?

Obviously there are not 3 sides to a board, so that is problematic. We then came up with our idea which is ridiculously simple, and to be honest, we initially didn't think it would work that well: Push the players together by controlling the cards they get, rather than forcing them together by reducing the board.

We tried it, and on the first play we immediately noticed that it seemed like the only times you would even want to build into the areas of the board that aren't supported by location cards are situations that were interesting decisions. Several more playtests confirmed this thinking, and now were are confident saying that we think the 2 player game we have developed is mostly the same as the old, albeit somewhat more interesting and emergent.

Just in case it's not clear: our 2 player rules use the whole board on both games, but are missing several locations (which will be denoted somehow on the board) and these missing locations are totally in-bounds. Build on them as you desire.

What's probably not immediately apparent is why people don't just wander off into their own areas perpetually, and the answer is that generally speaking, that is not great play. The links you build out into the far reachs are generally not capable of getting many points, because your opponent can only build into them via a double action. Things like the shipyard space in birkenhead are indeed now possible, but require at least a few links built out into this "no man's land" that will generally be worth little points.

It is fair to say that our 2 player rules result in a different experience than the existing fan made variant rules. We are happy with our rules so far, and would appreciate any seasoned 2 player brass fans contacting me for the exact details of how to play it, so that we can gather more feedback on it.

Lastly we have applied this same logic to the 3 player game, which results in a tighter experience at 3 players, and more consistent scaling between all player counts.

Thanks everyone for your feedback. Our decisions have always revolved around providing the best 2 player experience possible, so that is why we aren't including the fan made variant map.
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James Moline
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Rahdo just said on his reddit AMA that he's not going to get to do a runthrough of the game during the kickstarter
 
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matt tolman
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jmoline wrote:
Rahdo just said on his reddit AMA that he's not going to get to do a runthrough of the game during the kickstarter :(


Correct, Rahdo is really busy right now, so we've gotten Man vs Meeple to do our main video preview for this campaign.
 
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Nathan Spillman
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mopeymatt wrote:
jmoline wrote:
Rahdo just said on his reddit AMA that he's not going to get to do a runthrough of the game during the kickstarter


Correct, Rahdo is really busy right now, so we've gotten Man vs Meeple to do our main video preview for this campaign.


In his AMA, Rahdo said the copy you wanted to send to him got lost in the mail, but now YOU'RE saying that he's too busy to do one. With as much emphasis on the "new" 2 and 3P modes you've put into the campaign, it seems like I would have made a huge effort to have, rightfully or not, the biggest name in 2P gaming review my game.

I don't want to seem combative, but I'm really starting to feel put off by the defensive tone surrounding a lot of this KS campaign.
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matt tolman
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therasim wrote:
mopeymatt wrote:
jmoline wrote:
Rahdo just said on his reddit AMA that he's not going to get to do a runthrough of the game during the kickstarter


Correct, Rahdo is really busy right now, so we've gotten Man vs Meeple to do our main video preview for this campaign.


In his AMA, Rahdo said the copy you wanted to send to him got lost in the mail, but now YOU'RE saying that he's too busy to do one. With as much emphasis on the "new" 2 and 3P modes you've put into the campaign, it seems like I would have made a huge effort to have, rightfully or not, the biggest name in 2P gaming review my game.

I don't want to seem combative, but I'm really starting to feel put off by the defensive tone surrounding a lot of this KS campaign.


To be fair, the emphasis is a result of commenters, not us. We did put a lot of work into the 2 player, but I maintain as I always have that Brass is best with 4. This doesn't mean I think it's not good with less either. Our work to improve the 2 and 3 player games has paid off, and as we see it is a significant improvement, but brass is still best with 4, IMHO.

As for Rahdo:

1. rahdo was busy, so we sent our first prototypes to man vs meeple to ensure a timely video.
2. They got lost in the mail, so we sent them the copies we were going to send to Rahdo.
3. Rahdo probably doesn't realize this, as I'm sure we just told him we lost prototypes period, rather then his or someone else's.

At this point, printing another high quality prototype and getting it to rahdo to get out in time for the kickstarter campaign probably isn't in the cards. I agree that it would have benefitted the campaign, but we don't have infinite resources and time.

As for our defensive tone, I'd love to hear suggestions about how else to respond to comments that are basically attacks on our character or judgement. But obviously when someone challenges us publicly about our statements it warrants and needs some sort of response, and when people twist my words (I said rahdo was "busy"; you then said I said rahdo was "too busy" to do it), and then say that those words contradict what Rahdo has said, it leaves me little recourse but to defend what I said.

I say all of this from a very sincere and open place. We are doing our best, and I'm not perfect. We appreciate your support and passion, and we know in the end the products and games will speak for themselves. Honestly, I can't wait for that day to arrive, because speaking for them right now, in the absence of video previews and reviews, is quite difficult and extremely time consuming.

Thank you for stating your concerns in a civil and logical fashion, I appreciate it so much. I hope I have addressed them in a way that sastifies you.
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James Moline
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therasim wrote:
I don't want to seem combative, but I'm really starting to feel put off by the defensive tone surrounding a lot of this KS campaign.


Whew! It's a good thing you said you don't want to seem combative, otherwise I would have completely misread the accusatory tone of your post.
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Nathan Spillman
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Quote:
As for our defensive tone, I'd love to hear suggestions about how else to respond to comments that are basically attacks on our character or judgement. But obviously when someone challenges us publicly about our statements it warrants and needs some sort of response, and when people twist my words (I said rahdo was "busy"; you then said I said rahdo was "too busy" to do it), and then say that those words contradict what Rahdo has said, it leaves me little recourse but to defend what I said.


This paragraph contains a lot of the defensive, almost passive-aggressive tone that tends to put me off as a customer. If you're honestly asking for feedback rather than being snarky, I'd be glad to offer my opinions:

Quote:
comments that are basically attacks on our character or judgement


Being in the public eye in any way is going to cause people to speak to you in this way, as an example, look right below your post to the person responding to my last comment. My instinct is to lash back and defend my right to make that statement, but instead, I will reply back that my words could have been chosen better and restated my reply. A representative of a company, IN MY OPINION, should be more deferential than defensive, especially when trying to sell a product. This sounds dangerously close to "the customer is always right", but there IS a hint of truth to it; I'd prefer to phrase it as "it's rude to tell your customers [plural] that they are wrong. It sucks to have to swallow pride, but sometimes crucial from a business standpoint.

As too the "busy" vs "too busy" discussion, I'm not sure that a semantics argument is going to help anyone in this situation.

Finally, and most egregious to me, is blaming the customers for inflating the importance of a feature that was bullet-pointed various times in the run up to the campaign. If a publisher stated that "improved" components were part of a project, then were very cagey about discussions of those components, that would justifiably upset a number of people. We are just looking for more details of a campaign we're considering backing.

I'm honestly interested in a discussion on this topic and would enter one with an open mind. But I would not consider asking legitimate questions an attack unless I were afraid of the answers to those questions. But, I only speak for myself and my opinions are my own. If I personally came off as overly aggressive, then I apologize for my tone and hopefully have demonstrated my intentions here. If I've failed, then I'll bow out of the conversation at once.
 
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Nathan Spillman
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jmoline wrote:
therasim wrote:
I don't want to seem combative, but I'm really starting to feel put off by the defensive tone surrounding a lot of this KS campaign.


Whew! It's a good thing you said you don't want to seem combative, otherwise I would have completely misread the accusatory tone of your post.


You're absolutely right. What I said probably did come off as accusatory in the heat of the moment and I should have taken the time to make a more measured response. Thank you for calling me out on it.
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matt tolman
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All good points and most are things I'm striving to get better at.

Just for clarity, I didn't think your questions were attacks, just the indirect accusation that either rahdo or I was lying about something. If that was not your intention, please forgive my lack of understanding.
 
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James Moline
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therasim wrote:
jmoline wrote:
therasim wrote:
I don't want to seem combative, but I'm really starting to feel put off by the defensive tone surrounding a lot of this KS campaign.


Whew! It's a good thing you said you don't want to seem combative, otherwise I would have completely misread the accusatory tone of your post.


You're absolutely right. What I said probably did come off as accusatory in the heat of the moment and I should have taken the time to make a more measured response. Thank you for calling me out on it.


Dagnabit. How am I supposed to be hyped up on righteous anger if you're going to be all reasonable? I was probably a bit too quick to judge, so I apologize for that.

I usually back a kickstarter and forget about it, but for some reason (I think because I've been subscribed to the Brass forums for a while now), I got sucked into this one. I know I shouldn't be, but I'm amazed at the drama and vitriol surrounding this production. Seeing it makes me quick to jump in because, you know, I'm such a "reasonable" person, which inevitably leads to misunderstandings.

I think it's probably time for me to back away from the keyboard for a while.

I'm still really looking forward to this game, though!
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