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Subject: Detailed list of updates in the new version from Roxley Games rss

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matt tolman
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Here is a list of changes and rebalances we are introducing in our version of Brass: Lancashire.

Changes to the components:

level 1 cotton mills changed from 3 to 5 points

After analyzing data from orderofthehammer.com that building lvl 1 cotton mills is strongly correlated with losing. We have thus increased the points moderately. We still feel that a player should almost never play a level 1 cotton mill as the return is so poor, but now believe that there are at least edge cases where it is now a viable play.

2 cards removed from the deck (one coal and one cotton)

To make setting up the rail phase simpler, and to reduce some edge cases where players can be unwittingly helped or hindered by the random cards that were removed.

Virtual link between Birkenhead and Liverpool removed

From another thread:

Quote:
Hi folks,

Who would have thought that an edge case rule in a game published years ago on a rather obscure theme would generate such a discussion.

I would like to make it clear that I am 100% in favour of this change. I have complete confidence in Roxley to develop the game as they see fit. Originally the rule was included to deal with a situation which we thought might crop up occasionally. Now with many thousands of logged plays it seems to be the case that the rule is hardly ever applied.

Although this may be hard to believe but I do try to simplify my designs as much as possible. I think removing a rule that has almost zero impact on the game and which makes it that little easier to teach is a bit of a ‘no-brainer’. I’m sure that my opinion on this will probably solicit more replies, some of which may be rather critical. My suggestion is to just relax, its only a game.

Many thanks to all of those folks who have pledged so far.

Martin Wallace


Two player support added

Through playtesting we discovered that limiting the location cards in the deck has a similar effect on the game as limiting the board itself, and that the only times it is not the same, it's an interesting decision point.

To play the new two player rules with an old copy of Brass and see for yourself:

2 player rules

Play with a modified deck
Birkenhead x2
Blackburn x2
Boltoln x2
Bury x1
Ellesmere Port x1
Liverpool x3
Manchester x4
Oldham x2
Preston x3
Rochdale x2
Stockport x2
Warrington & Runcorn x2
Wigan x2
Iron x3
Coal x4
Port x2
Shipyard x3

Start with 25 pounds

Distant market
Play WITH the following tiles: 0,1,2,2,3,4
Start with the demand marker one space lower on the demand track. (as if a 1 had already flipped)

Remove 2 cards from the deck during the canal period

3 player rules

Play with a modified deck
Barrow-in-Furness x2
Birkenhead x2
Blackburn x2
Bolton x2
Burnley x2
Bury x1
Ellesmere Port x1
Fleetwood x1
Lancaster x3
Liverpool x3
Manchester x4
Oldham x2
Preston x2
Rochdale x2
Stockport x2
Warrington & Runcorn x2
Cotton x5
Wigan x2
Iron x3
Coal x4
Port x4
Shipyard x3

Distant market
Start with the demand marker one space lower on the demand track. (as if a 1 had already flipped)

Remove 3 cards from the deck during the canal phase

edit: 2 cotton added to 3p, removed liverpool and preston
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Max
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Cool, thanks for posting this.

mopeymatt wrote:
2 cards removed from the deck (one coal and one cotton)

To make setting up the rail phase simpler, and to reduce some edge cases where players can be unwittingly helped or hindered by the random cards that were removed.


So there is no removing of two random cards, right?
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Samuel Hinz
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thanks for posting this.
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Don Clarke
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Big thumbs up. And this is going to save you so much stress meeple
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matt tolman
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max bredow wrote:
Cool, thanks for posting this.

mopeymatt wrote:
2 cards removed from the deck (one coal and one cotton)

To make setting up the rail phase simpler, and to reduce some edge cases where players can be unwittingly helped or hindered by the random cards that were removed.


So there is no removing of two random cards, right?


Correct.
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Mark von Minden
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Are there changes to the map? I'm far from a Brass expert, but I see a couple differences from the image on the KS page & the original map:

- Lancaster Mill/Port is now an Ironworks.
- No rail link between W&R and Liverpool.

Wasn't sure if those changes were intentional or mistakes. Apologies if these have been discussed elsewhere already.
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Daniel Gómez
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This post is really helpful to understand your changes, thanks. I hope to play your two players​ solution tomorrow.

Will cards have setup information? Something like a small 3 or 4 to note which cards to use in 2, 3, 4 player games. Distant market tiles also should have this setup information​.

Edit: spelling
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matt tolman
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Membrillo wrote:
This post is really helpful to understand your changes, thanks. I hope to play your two players​ solution tomorrow.

Will cards have setup information? Something like a small 3 or 4 to note which cards to use in 2, 3, 4 player games. Distant market tiles also should have this setup information​.

Edit: spelling


Yes, this is easily seen on the bottom right corner of the cards.
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mrkvm wrote:
Are there changes to the map? I'm far from a Brass expert, but I see a couple differences from the image on the KS page & the original map:

- Lancaster Mill/Port is now an Ironworks.
- No rail link between W&R and Liverpool.

Wasn't sure if those changes were intentional or mistakes. Apologies if these have been discussed elsewhere already.


These seem important.
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matt tolman
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mrkvm wrote:
Are there changes to the map? I'm far from a Brass expert, but I see a couple differences from the image on the KS page & the original map:

- Lancaster Mill/Port is now an Ironworks.
- No rail link between W&R and Liverpool.

Wasn't sure if those changes were intentional or mistakes. Apologies if these have been discussed elsewhere already.


It has been discussed elsewhere, but I think it will help others to see the answer here. :)


We are aware of those and they have already been updated in the current file.
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Is end game money officially worth points in this edition?
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lsamadi wrote:
Is end game money officially worth points in this edition?
It'd better not be, and would clearly have said so here as it would have been a change.
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mopeymatt wrote:
Membrillo wrote:
This post is really helpful to understand your changes, thanks. I hope to play your two players​ solution tomorrow.

Will cards have setup information? Something like a small 3 or 4 to note which cards to use in 2, 3, 4 player games. Distant market tiles also should have this setup information​.

Edit: spelling


Yes, this is easily seen on the bottom right corner of the cards.


Should this be visible on the KS page "Whats in the box" graphics?
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Thanks for sharing.
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TheRocketSurgeon wrote:
lsamadi wrote:
Is end game money officially worth points in this edition?
It'd better not be, and would clearly have said so here as it would have been a change.


Did I miss something?

To my knowledge, end game money has always worthed points (1VP/10£).
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mopeymatt wrote:


Two player support added

Through playtesting we discovered that limiting the location cards in the deck has a similar effect on the game as limiting the board itself, and that the only times it is not the same, it's an interesting decision point.

To play the new two player rules with an old copy of Brass and see for yourself:

Each player starts with $25

Play with a deck consisting of the following cards:
Card: Number:
Cotton 6
coal 4
Port 4
Iron 2
shipyardl 2
Blackburn 2
Burnley 2
Bolton 2
Bury 1
Colne 2
Fleetwood 1
Barrow-in-Furn 2
Lancaster 2
Liverpool 3
Manchester 2
Wigan 1
Preston 2

Remove 0, 0, -1, and -3 tiles from the distant market tiles.

All other rules are the same as the base game, including our changes to the components listed above.


Hi Matt,

I would like to test your 2 player version tomorrow. I've noticed that card distribution is slightly different from Harju's variant (total number of cards remains the same), see below:

Cotton 5
coal 4
Port 3
Iron 2
shipyard 1
Blackburn 2
Burnley 2
Bolton 2
Bury 1
Colne 2
Fleetwood 1
Barrow-in-F 2
Lancaster 2
Liverpool 3
Manchester 3
Wigan 1
Preston 2
Warr & Runc 2

Since your version does not cover any location, I understand that you may needed to change card distribution. I'm OK with that. Although I noticed that you removed all Warrington & Runcorn cards. Just to double check before playing tomorrow.

At the beginning of the canal period we should remove 2 cards randomly from the deck, right?
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afafard wrote:
TheRocketSurgeon wrote:
lsamadi wrote:
Is end game money officially worth points in this edition?
It'd better not be, and would clearly have said so here as it would have been a change.


Did I miss something?

To my knowledge, end game money has always worthed points (1VP/10£).


Never mind...my bad. All these years I could never ever find it in the rulebook. And NOW I just found it. LOL!
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Darryl with one "R"
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For anyone who tests the new 2P rules -- please report back to the thread regarding how well it works compared to the unofficial variant everyone uses today.
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I see a lot of similarities between this and the other 2p variant.

Notably, you're removing Warrington & Runcorn cards in order to give us some extra industry cards.

The missing Rochdale, Oldham, Stockport, Birkenhead, and other southern cities are common in both variants.

I can see what they mean by not blocking off any cities from the board.
It looks like we're welcome to build in places like Rochdale, W&C, Stockport, and even W&R, but we will only do so with an industry card and neighboring influence.

I like it.
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Membrillo wrote:
mopeymatt wrote:


Two player support added

Through playtesting we discovered that limiting the location cards in the deck has a similar effect on the game as limiting the board itself, and that the only times it is not the same, it's an interesting decision point.

To play the new two player rules with an old copy of Brass and see for yourself:

Each player starts with $25

Play with a deck consisting of the following cards:
Card: Number:
Cotton 6
coal 4
Port 4
Iron 2
shipyardl 2
Blackburn 2
Burnley 2
Bolton 2
Bury 1
Colne 2
Fleetwood 1
Barrow-in-Furn 2
Lancaster 2
Liverpool 3
Manchester 2
Wigan 1
Preston 2

Remove 0, 0, -1, and -3 tiles from the distant market tiles.

All other rules are the same as the base game, including our changes to the components listed above.


Hi Matt,

I would like to test your 2 player version tomorrow. I've noticed that card distribution is slightly different from Harju's variant (total number of cards remains the same), see below:

Cotton 5
coal 4
Port 3
Iron 2
shipyard 1
Blackburn 2
Burnley 2
Bolton 2
Bury 1
Colne 2
Fleetwood 1
Barrow-in-F 2
Lancaster 2
Liverpool 3
Manchester 3
Wigan 1
Preston 2
Warr & Runc 2

Since your version does not cover any location, I understand that you may needed to change card distribution. I'm OK with that. Although I noticed that you removed all Warrington & Runcorn cards. Just to double check before playing tomorrow.

At the beginning of the canal period we should remove 2 cards randomly from the deck, right?


Correct. Remove 2 for the canal phase, it's been many months since we decided on that distribution, and we are open to fine tuning it further. Thanks for giving it a spin!
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mopeymatt wrote:
No other changes to the base game rules

Considering what has been said in another thread, this wording - and the list as a consequence - is very confusing.
Here you are NOT listing the differences with the current rulebook. You are listing the differences with the current 4p rules. Which is not the same.
For instance, under Roxley's version the 3p game lasts 8 rounds per era. While in the current game, a 3p last 10 rounds per era.

Could you please list the differences with the current rulebook instead?
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matt tolman
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tublefou wrote:
mopeymatt wrote:
No other changes to the base game rules

Considering what has been said in another thread, this wording - and the list as a consequence - is very confusing.
Here you are NOT listing the differences with the current rulebook. You are listing the differences with the current 4p rules. Which is not the same.
For instance, under Roxley's version the 3p game lasts 8 rounds per era. While in the current game, a 3p last 10 rounds per era.

Could you please list the differences with the current rulebook instead?


In any version of the rules, you play until the deck and hands are empty. In the Roxley version, the 3p game is 9 rounds, because the deck runs and hands run out after 9 rounds. (remove 3 cards in the canal phase)

This is all we have to go on for the moment, our rules are still being edited. Sorry about the confusion!

Hope that helps.
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I look forward to your changes. I know that many people are complaining about every little nuance. You guys are doing a great job and I would imagine the majority feel that way and the rest are just a very vocal minority.
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reddish22 wrote:
You guys are doing a great job and I would imagine the majority feel that way and the rest are just a very vocal minority.


+1

You have almost 6000 backers. Don't let the very vocal minority discourage. The whining, vitriol, flame throwing, and downright trolling is coming from a few dozen. Let the actual success of the campaign be evidence of your great work.

Your patience and professionalism are also noted by me and I'm sure also by the vast majority of backers who love what you're doing and have nothing to crow about.
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mopeymatt wrote:
mrkvm wrote:
Are there changes to the map? I'm far from a Brass expert, but I see a couple differences from the image on the KS page & the original map:

- Lancaster Mill/Port is now an Ironworks.
- No rail link between W&R and Liverpool.

Wasn't sure if those changes were intentional or mistakes. Apologies if these have been discussed elsewhere already.


It has been discussed elsewhere, but I think it will help others to see the answer here.


We are aware of those and they have already been updated in the current file.


Can you comment on how much playtesting was done with these incorrect (eg mistaken Ironworks and rail link missing)? Any chance this altered play enough to matter, considering you made some changes to cards and other rules in the version?
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