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Innovation» Forums » Rules

Subject: Self Service rss

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revoLucian Noneofyourbusiness
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I played Self-Service, I had four achievements. My friend who had one had more crowns so elected to take the action as well.
Self service says:
(1)execute each of your non-demand dogma effects of any other top card on your board.
(2) If you have more achievements than each other player, you win.
One of his non-demand dogma effects enabled him to swap a top card with me. He chose that and took self-service.

What occurs next? I am guessing that the action continues at least for the first step. Do I still win? Does the second step of the dogma apply only to my opponent?
 
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David desJardins
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This is in the FAQ.

If a card is removed from play mid dogma (covered, returned, returned, etc.) you still complete all of the effects on it.

By the way, he doesn't "elect" to take the action, he must do so.
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revoLucian Noneofyourbusiness
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Well self service says "If YOU have the most achievements" the card now applies to my opponent, or does it still apply to me?
 
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W. Eric Martin
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revoLucian1776 wrote:
Well self service says "If YOU have the most achievements" the card now applies to my opponent, or does it still apply to me?

Effects on dogma cards always start with the leftmost opponent who qualifies to be able to use that dogma, and if a card has a multi-part dogma, you go clockwise around the table for the first part, then clockwise around the table for the second part. Thus, when you choose to use the dogma on Self Service, the game resolves the card like this (edited for clarity and correctness):

• Leftmost opponent, did you have at least as many crowns as the active player at the start of this dogma effect? If yes, execute each of the non-demand dogma effects of any other top card on your board without sharing them.
• Next opponent going clockwise, did you have at least as many...? Etc.
• (Go through all the opponents)
• Active player, execute each of the...

Then you go around the table again:

• Leftmost opponent, did you have at least as many crowns as the active player at the start of this dogma effect? If yes, then if you have more achievements than each opponent, you win.
• Next opponent going clockwise, did you have at least as many...? Etc.
• (Go through all the opponents)
• Active player, if you have more achievements than each opponent, you win.

You go through each step in order, which means that each opponent with as many crowns as you has a chance to win the game first if they have more achievements than each other player. If no one else matches this condition, and you still have more achievements than each other player when you get to the final line above, then you win.
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revoLucian Noneofyourbusiness
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The card says "If YOU have more achievements," therefore I am asking if I do have the most achievements but the first dogma effect results in it changing hands, does the YOU still apply to me, or does it apply to the player who hold it after the first dogma effet. I understand the turn order. It does not say whomever has the most achievements, it says specifically "if YOU" have more achievements than each of your opponents. I had four achievements at this time, my opponents had 2 and 1. Would I get to win on this turn? Or no, because it changed hands.
 
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revoLucian Noneofyourbusiness
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Do I win or do we keep playing?
 
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David desJardins
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revoLucian1776 wrote:
Well self service says "If YOU have the most achievements" the card now applies to my opponent, or does it still apply to me?


First your opponent executes the dogmas on the card. He doesn't win, because he doesn't have the most achievements. Then you execute the dogmas on the card. You do win, because you do have the most achievements.

"You" in a non-demand dogma always refers to the player who is executing the dogma. This is also in the FAQ.
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revoLucian Noneofyourbusiness
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Just so we're clear...
So despite the fact that the card changed hands and is now on his board after the first dogma effect it is still treated as if I executed the second effect?
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Joseph DiMuro
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revoLucian1776 wrote:
Just so we're clear...
So despite the fact that the card changed hands and is now on his board after the first dogma effect it is still treated as if I executed the second effect?


Yes.

W Eric Martin wrote:
Thus, when you choose to use the dogma on Self Service, the game resolves the card like this:

• Leftmost opponent, do you have at least as many crowns as the active player? If yes, execute each of the non-demand dogma effects of any other top card on your board without sharing them.
• Next opponent going clockwise, do you have at least as many...? Etc.
• (Go through all the opponents)
• Active player, execute each of the...
• Leftmost opponent, do you have at least as many crowns as the active player? If yes, then if you have more achievements than each opponent, you win.
• Next opponent going clockwise, do you have at least as many...? Etc.
• (Go through all the opponents)
• Active player, if you have more achievements than each opponent, you win.


An addendum: when you figure out which opponents get to share in a dogma effect, you count the relevant icon (crowns, in this case) at the START of the dogma action. If there are multiple dogma effects on the card, you don't recount the relevant icon after each effect.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Yes.

As W. Eric Martin stated, the process is:

1: He executes his dogma effect and transfers Self Service to his board.
2: You choose one of your top cards (even the one he just gave you) and resolve all non-demand effects on that chosen card.
3: He checks to see if he has more achievements than you. Unless something crazy happens in step 2, he doesn't, so he doesn't win.
4: You check to see if you have more achievements than him. Unless something crazy happened in step 2, you do qualify and you win.

Remember to just follow the steps that W. Eric Martin posted and that you continue to execute any card, even if it is transferred, returned, tucked, covered or whatever.

Finally, 'you' in a non-demand effect always refers to the player currently executing the effect, whether that is the owner of the card or someone else executing the same effect.
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revoLucian Noneofyourbusiness
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Thank you!
 
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Kirk Monsen
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The first time I glossed over what Eric wrote, I was confused, thinking that's not right ... then I reread it .. and it is right. It would be nice if he separated the bullet points midway. The first four bullets deal with the first bullet of the dogma, and the last four deal with the last bullet. (I misread it that the first 7 dealt with the first bullet, and only the last one dealt with the last bullet).
 
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Rafał Kruczek
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W Eric Martin wrote:
• Leftmost opponent, do you have at least as many crowns as the active player? If yes, then if you have more achievements than each opponent, you win.
• Next opponent going clockwise, do you have at least as many...? Etc.

You only check icon counts for the purposes of sharing ONLY ONCE - at the beginning of dogma action.
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W. Eric Martin
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rafal100 wrote:
W Eric Martin wrote:
• Leftmost opponent, do you have at least as many crowns as the active player? If yes, then if you have more achievements than each opponent, you win.
• Next opponent going clockwise, do you have at least as many...? Etc.

You only check icon counts for the purposes of sharing ONLY ONCE - at the beginning of dogma action.

Yes, thank you! I've edited the post above.
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Armand
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I like to think of dogma effects as levers and all the melded cards on the table as a machine. When you pull the lever it carries out a sequence of events, sometimes unintended, that can't be halted, even if the lever itself moves.

With four players, especially late in the game, you get a really strong sense of the cards on the table as a crazy machine. I love it
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Rafał Kruczek
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doctoryes0 wrote:
I like to think of dogma effects as levers and all the melded cards on the table as a machine. When you pull the lever it carries out a sequence of events, sometimes unintended, that can't be halted, even if the lever itself moves.

With four players, especially late in the game, you get a really strong sense of the cards on the table as a crazy machine. I love it

And if you know [10] cards well enough , you can predict chances of paticular card apperaing in "Draw [10] and execute" effect.
 
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Parker McParker
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rafal100 wrote:
W Eric Martin wrote:
• Leftmost opponent, do you have at least as many crowns as the active player? If yes, then if you have more achievements than each opponent, you win.
• Next opponent going clockwise, do you have at least as many...? Etc.

You only check icon counts for the purposes of sharing ONLY ONCE - at the beginning of dogma action.


Just checking that I have things straight. you check icon counts at the start of EACH dogma action? So if somebody executes a card with two dogmas, there will be two icon checks (the second when play gets back around to the start player)?

Thanks. This game always seems simpler when you're playing it than when you're discussing it away from the table.
 
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W. Eric Martin
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MLBath wrote:
rafal100 wrote:
W Eric Martin wrote:
• Leftmost opponent, do you have at least as many crowns as the active player? If yes, then if you have more achievements than each opponent, you win.
• Next opponent going clockwise, do you have at least as many...? Etc.

You only check icon counts for the purposes of sharing ONLY ONCE - at the beginning of dogma action.

Just checking that I have things straight. you check icon counts at the start of EACH dogma action? So if somebody executes a card with two dogmas, there will be two icon checks (the second when play gets back around to the start player)?

Thanks. This game always seems simpler when you're playing it than when you're discussing it away from the table.

However many effects a dogma has, there's only one dogma action. You check only at the moment you say, "I'm going to [do the dogma of whatever card it is]."
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Parker McParker
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W Eric Martin wrote:
MLBath wrote:
rafal100 wrote:
W Eric Martin wrote:
• Leftmost opponent, do you have at least as many crowns as the active player? If yes, then if you have more achievements than each opponent, you win.
• Next opponent going clockwise, do you have at least as many...? Etc.

You only check icon counts for the purposes of sharing ONLY ONCE - at the beginning of dogma action.

Just checking that I have things straight. you check icon counts at the start of EACH dogma action? So if somebody executes a card with two dogmas, there will be two icon checks (the second when play gets back around to the start player)?

Thanks. This game always seems simpler when you're playing it than when you're discussing it away from the table.

However many effects a dogma has, there's only one dogma action. You check only at the moment you say, "I'm going to [do the dogma of whatever card it is]."


Got it (finally!). Thanks.
 
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Karl Hanf
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MLBath wrote:
Just checking that I have things straight. you check icon counts at the start of EACH dogma action? So if somebody executes a card with two dogmas, there will be two icon checks (the second when play gets back around to the start player)?

Like Eric is indicating:
A dogma action is one way to use one of your 2 actions on your turn.
Those bullets points on the card are each a dogma effect.
 
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Rafał Kruczek
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MLBath wrote:

Thanks. This game always seems simpler when you're playing it than when you're discussing it away from the table.

When you are executing dogmas such as first effect Self Service or various other draw/meld and execute effects, you should constantly check for remaining special achievements.
I've seen many games lost by activating player, when such effect gave opponent one or two achievements needed to win.
So after certain moment in age 8, achievements should be constantly checked when anything changes on the board.
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