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Myth» Forums » General

Subject: MCG silence – what practically can we do now? rss

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Marcus Taylor
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So the latest silence is long ever by their standards of poor communication. And we have nothing but guesswork and conjecture to go on.

Their forums, Kickstarter comments and BGG are filled with posts asking for contact. Some of them are understandably growing angry.

Someone mention on the JM KS comments that Tom Mason, the former sculptor from MCG, has his own Kickstarter up and running. He pointed out that MCG would normally promote this, considering they worked with him for some time, so he took it as a bad sign.

But what can we actually do?

(And many thanks to someone here who is close to MCG who has kindly offered to look into the case of my missing minion pledges – thank you, I greatly appreciate it.)


I think at this stage there are three possibilities:

#1 – MCG return and tell us there will be delays because [reasons]. Things will likely be late, but they tell us that we will get at least some of our stuff at some point.

Not much we really need to do if this turns out to be the case – we’re just back where we were six months ago and we sit and wait. This looks like the best-case scenario, however unlikely it may be at this point.

#2 - MCG return to say they don’t have any money, because [insert excuse here]. They consider the Journeyman Kickstarter delivered because they sent the boxes and we won’t be getting stretch goals or add-ons.

They likely have a point over stretch goals, as we didn’t pay anything for them. But what about add-ons? Many of us went ‘all in’ and spent hundreds of $$$ on these. Will we get a refund? Do we have any recourse or is there anything we can do?

#3 – Shotton and Co just pretend that MCG never happened and Myth doesn’t exist. They get on with their lives and we never hear from them again. (Their forums are already filled with advertising spam, a reliable sign of a company going out of business.) How long do we wait for? If September comes and we hear nothing, how long are people prepared to wait?


So in the case of #2 or #3, do we have any recourse? We know KS isn’t a shop and nothing is guaranteed. All the KS I’ve backed until now gave me what I wanted, and I honestly have little idea as to what, if anything, we can do. I know KS is just a platform and doesn’t get involved in responsibility, but is there any legal recourse? Is there any way we could chase the money for add-ons and multiple pledges? It’s only a few thousand dollars I guess, but it all adds up.

Practically, in the worst-case scenario, is there anything we can actually do? Does anyone here any have any experience with failed Kickstarters?

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Endevor Rovedne
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I don't know if i should talk or not for weeks now. My answer will probably frustrate you.

2 or 3 weeks ago, i sent an email to Brian, like you i was worried. He answered me right away, we talked about everything we are discussing here for weeks now. I can't talk about it, you will have to wait until they communicate (and you will understand why). After this discussion i can say i was less worried. The only thing i can say is that they havn't disappeared.

Now you understand why i almost did not made this post, please don't ask me questions i will not answer. I am not telling you either to not keep talking about this subject i just think there is not a lot you can do about it now (because even if i don't think it will happen IF they don't deliver there is no legal solution we saw this on multiple KS now...).
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Marcus Taylor
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Okay, thanks for your help.

If you feel that they will come through, then I’m inclined to believe you. I guess we all just wait and see what they say when they choose to tell us.

Even if they have a serious reason for the silence, I still feel that they should have posted something, however brief, to allay our fears. That’s part of running a professional company.
Even a brief message saying there’s a personal problem would be enough – I’m sure most people would sympathise and understand.

If you have any influence over MCG, please ask them to say something, anything. Best for them, and best for us.

Silence just hurts everybody.
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Tobias Loeffler
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I can't speak for anybody else, but here is what I'm going to do:

Focus my energies on the game.

While it is totally out of my control, what MCG does or doesn't do, what I can actually do, is trying to contribute with ideas, mods and dreams to this great community.

I don't want to dismiss anybody's anger, frustration or disappointment about the whole MYTH-situation, but perhaps at this point of the journey it may be a good idea to stop and think about yourself and what YOU can do, to get back to enjoying this game.

I don't write this, because I want "the haters off the board". No. I write this, because if worst comes to worst, this community will still be here. We have people that are passionate about the game, we have all the templates, we can go on even without MCG.

I know how that sounds and perhaps it is just a crazy pipe dream, but I still believe we can live the MYTH. I believe, that the future of this game lies in everybody's own hands.
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Marcus Taylor
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That’s fine, if you’re happy with the game as it is, I’m genuinely pleased you enjoy it and want to be positive about it. .

But after two months of complete silence, people who have backed their games, and received nothing, absolutely have a right to discuss that issue, however they feel about MCG.

Why not start a thread about your Myth games or a general ‘positivity’ thread for support of MCG? This one is discussing what happens next and for finding some way to get answers. Believers or doubters, the one thing we have in common is that we don't have our stuff.

I just want closure at this point. Tell us that we will, or will not, be getting what we paid for, then we can all go forward or move on.

If we can discover what is going on, then we can all decide if we feel we have enough to play the game, or sell it or whatever. Until then, we're in the dark. And have a right to discuss that.
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Boots
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I backed Up Front and had to kiss the $175 goodbye. it's the risk. Acting like you are entitled to get your money back is against the whole spirit of KS.

If they don't come back to us - and it looks like they will - I reckon the best bet is to see them at GenCon. Theyre always really responsive in person.

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David Griffin
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Boots01 wrote:
I backed Up Front and had to kiss the $175 goodbye. it's the risk. Acting like you are entitled to get your money back is against the whole spirit of KS.

If they don't come back to us - and it looks like they will - I reckon the best bet is to see them at GenCon. Theyre always really responsive in person.



I don't think that is true. There may be no legal commitment you could hold them to but there still is an ethical commitment. Now they could essentially go bankrupt and then that IS something of a expected risk in KS.

Have they burned their bridges at this point? Will anyone buy their stuff in future? Hopefully they will deliver, but if they don't, will KS allow them to hold another KS after that point? Not sure what the rules are?
 
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Endevor Rovedne
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I disagree we are entitled to receive the content we have pledged for.
Ks is some kind of preorder for me.

I know it is a risk for almost every KS but whatever will happened in the future they will have to give answers for me.
 
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Dheyrdre Machado
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Endevor wrote:
I disagree we are entitled to receive the content we have pledged for.
Ks is some kind of preorder for me.

I know it is a risk for almost every KS but whatever will happened in the future they will have to give answers for me.


I tried contact them using one email that they always answered me, but after a few weeks nothing. Can you please give me the email to contact them?
 
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Trevor Schadt
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Endevor wrote:
I disagree we are entitled to receive the content we have pledged for.
No. We are not. Go read the Kickstarter Terms of Service.
Endevor wrote:
Ks is some kind of preorder for me.
No. It is not. Go read the Kickstarter Terms of Service.

I'm glad you have received positive communication from MegaCon and I look forward to reading when they deign to speak to the rest of us.
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Josh Worley
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Did we REALLY need another thread created for this? How is this any different than the existing "When will I get my Journeyman content" thread?
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Marcus Taylor
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swirlsaepi wrote:
Did we REALLY need another thread created for this? How is this any different than the existing "When will I get my Journeyman content" thread?


If you don't like it, don't post.

Actually, it actually got results in that Endevour says that they are still out there.
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Morten Due Olsen
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They just send out an update, but what this sentences mean

"We are under an NDA on Myth and have been for many months"
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Marcus Taylor
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Endevor wrote:
I disagree we are entitled to receive the content we have pledged for.


I admit I assumed it was a kind of 'investment' and the poor backers are out of luck if they get stiffed.

But I didn't know for sure and wanted to see if anyone here had any specific knowledge.

AT the very least, we know they are still around. Which is more than I knew yesterday.
 
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Gene D
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I understand that Endevor has indicated that he cannot provide any additional information about the current Megacon situation. Considering the NDA post and the little that Endevor was able to share, I have my own wild speculative theory -

What if MCG did not sellout everything, but instead, what if they went into a partnership deal/arrangement along the lines what happened with AEG & FFG? (That sort of thing would very likely include a NDA until a formal public announcement of the arrangement was made.)
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Duncan Idaho
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ryudoowaru wrote:
Endevor wrote:
I disagree we are entitled to receive the content we have pledged for.
No. We are not. Go read the Kickstarter Terms of Service.
Endevor wrote:
Ks is some kind of preorder for me.
No. It is not. Go read the Kickstarter Terms of Service.

I'm glad you have received positive communication from MegaCon and I look forward to reading when they deign to speak to the rest of us.


You're wrong. Kickstarter terms of service don't define the legal relationship created by people pledging. People need to stop talking about things they don't understand.
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Martin Gallo
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Idaho11 wrote:
Kickstarter terms of service don't define the legal relationship created by people pledging. People need to stop talking about things they don't understand.
Except that they do. It has been challenged in state courts and upheld. If you pledge, you are owed. One area I am not clear on is what happens with stretch goals.

What has not happened is some sort of appeal that raises the case to the US Supreme Court. So far I have not heard of any that get beyond state courts filed by state AGs (or is that stare AsG??).
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Josh Worley
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martimer wrote:
Idaho11 wrote:
Kickstarter terms of service don't define the legal relationship created by people pledging. People need to stop talking about things they don't understand.
Except that they do. It has been challenged in state courts and upheld. If you pledge, you are owed. One area I am not clear on is what happens with stretch goals.

What has not happened is some sort of appeal that raises the case to the US Supreme Court. So far I have not heard of any that get beyond state courts filed by state AGs (or is that stare AsG??).


The proper plural would be Attornies General.

Also, the KS terms of service only state that the creator has to make a good faith attempt at delivering their project. By completely releasing the expansions, they have fulfilled their "good faith" attempt.

Oh, they'll completely piss off most of the Myth customers in doing so, but they would be legally covered in the eyes of the KS terms of service.
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Martin Gallo
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swirlsaepi wrote:
martimer wrote:
Idaho11 wrote:
Kickstarter terms of service don't define the legal relationship created by people pledging. People need to stop talking about things they don't understand.
Except that they do. It has been challenged in state courts and upheld. If you pledge, you are owed. One area I am not clear on is what happens with stretch goals.

What has not happened is some sort of appeal that raises the case to the US Supreme Court. So far I have not heard of any that get beyond state courts filed by state AGs (or is that stare AsG??).


The proper plural would be Attornies General.

Also, the KS terms of service only state that the creator has to make a good faith attempt at delivering their project. By completely releasing the expansions, they have fulfilled their "good faith" attempt.

Oh, they'll completely piss off most of the Myth customers in doing so, but they would be legally covered in the eyes of the KS terms of service.
Attournies?..

"Good faith" is somewhat squishy and has been challenged in five states, as I recall.

The history of business includes many examples of failures to deliver.
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Jakob Kaine
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swirlsaepi wrote:
martimer wrote:
Idaho11 wrote:
Kickstarter terms of service don't define the legal relationship created by people pledging. People need to stop talking about things they don't understand.
Except that they do. It has been challenged in state courts and upheld. If you pledge, you are owed. One area I am not clear on is what happens with stretch goals.

What has not happened is some sort of appeal that raises the case to the US Supreme Court. So far I have not heard of any that get beyond state courts filed by state AGs (or is that stare AsG??).


The proper plural would be Attornies General.

Also, the KS terms of service only state that the creator has to make a good faith attempt at delivering their project. By completely releasing the expansions, they have fulfilled their "good faith" attempt.

Oh, they'll completely piss off most of the Myth customers in doing so, but they would be legally covered in the eyes of the KS terms of service.

I disagree based upon the short research I have completed. According to the Terms of Use :

Kickstarter provides a funding platform for creative projects. When a creator posts a project on Kickstarter, they’re inviting other people to form a contract with them. Anyone who backs a project is accepting the creator’s offer, and forming that contract.

Thus, by creating a reward that includes "stretch goals" which are clearly defined on the Kickstarter campaign page, a creator is offering to provide those rewards in exchange for money. That's a contract and is binding. I'm not sure from where your "good faith" argument is coming.
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reaching out from the in-between spaces...
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swirlsaepi wrote:
martimer wrote:
Idaho11 wrote:
Kickstarter terms of service don't define the legal relationship created by people pledging. People need to stop talking about things they don't understand.
Except that they do. It has been challenged in state courts and upheld. If you pledge, you are owed. One area I am not clear on is what happens with stretch goals.

What has not happened is some sort of appeal that raises the case to the US Supreme Court. So far I have not heard of any that get beyond state courts filed by state AGs (or is that stare AsG??).


The proper plural would be Attornies General.

Also, the KS terms of service only state that the creator has to make a good faith attempt at delivering their project. By completely releasing the expansions, they have fulfilled their "good faith" attempt.

Oh, they'll completely piss off most of the Myth customers in doing so, but they would be legally covered in the eyes of the KS terms of service.


But here's the thing, the KS terms of service doesn't mean anything until it gets challenged in court. What kickstarter does is new, so until the courts actually shape the legal language, KS can state anything they want in those terms of service and it'll mean nothing.

As we have seen, there have been some State Attorney Generals who have gone after Kickstarter creators and been successful.

Jorune
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Josh Worley
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The "controversial/fraudulent KS geeklist" has an entry for the game that went to the Washington state Attorney General. Here's the article: http://www.atg.wa.gov/news/news-releases/ag-makes-crowdfunde...

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/160421/item/3202546#i...

Yet, you have this. Pulled directly from the KS Terms of Service about five minutes ago.


If they can show that they've not mismanaged the funds and that they've worked "in good faith" to give us everything, they are not liable. Giving us everything could mean simply uploading a PNP file of everything they've produced.

If they say "sorry guys, the funds have dried up" and they show us the spreadsheet that indicates as such, they're not liable. We get nothing and have no leg to stand on in court. Sure, if they spent all the money on hookers and blow, obviously they're liable.

Kickstarter does NOTHING to protect buyers.
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Jakob Kaine
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Not to get too technical, but there is a difference between a State filing a civil suit for violation of State Consumer Protection Laws and an individual (or group of individuals) filing a civil suit for breach of contract. The creator may not be in violation of State law, but he/she/it may be in breach of contract. Arguing good faith, due diligence, good communication, apologies, etc. may be a defense to violations of consumer protections laws, but those are not defenses to breach of contract.
 
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Dan Renwick
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It's probably a good idea to resist speculating on legal matters if you don't have legal training. It just ends up being a whole lot of meaningless blather.
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Jakob Kaine
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Darby_ wrote:
It's probably a good idea to resist speculating on legal matters if you don't have legal training. It just ends up being a whole lot of meaningless blather.

I agree.
 
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