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Exceed: Red Horizon – Reese, Heidi, Nehtali, and Vincent» Forums » General

Subject: Season 1 changes wishlist rss

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Joshua Christensen
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Balance discussions are some of my favorite things to talk about in games so I wanted to bring one of my favorite topics to one of my favorite games. I'm just going to go through this character by character and list thing changes I'd like to see. I know changes aren't going to happen this is purely for fun.

Nehtali

Her Exceed mode is odd. There's really no reason to ever Exceed when playing her. If you chose to Exceed you'll have to use her innate as an action four times before it even has an impact. Also she has so many ways to gain gauge (3 different boosts) that it makes her innate ability less exciting then other characters abilities.

I could see changing her innate in a few different ways:

Reduce the cost of Exceeding from 3 to 2. This is the least exciting option and her innate still feels weak at this point. Would still take three uses of her Exceed ability to make it worth flipping.

Make it not cost an action but just something she can choose to do at the start of each of her turns. Probably too good.

Keep it the same but it also deals the opponent 1 damage when she uses it. Seems like the fairest/safest buff. Would entice me to Exceed with her from time to time and she could bleed out foes on low HP.

Vincent

I don't much experience with Vincent but he seems like he needs a ton of cards to work. And after you have spent all those cards to guard his attacks he doesn't particularly hit harder then others. His counter attack style looks especially poor when stacked next to the Season 2 counter attacker. He's (the season two character) got lots of guard, armor, and life gain naturally on his attacks plus he gets more guard and armor if he's slower. You can see the cards for the new characters on the tabletop simulator module.

I'd want to change a few of Vincent's cards.

On both sides of his character card I'd like to see: If you spent two or more force using this ability draw a card. This makes him a lot less card starved.

Crimson Barrage - Increase speed from 1 to 2. Not a major change but gives Sweep a bit of a scare. If given a +2 speed boost it becomes 4 which is a ton more competitive to fight long range attacks. The card has a super strong effect so maybe this buff is a bit too good?

National Guard - Increase damage from 6 to 7. This card feels like it is Vincent's signature attack so it should be a little more impressive then it is. Especially considering it isn't that difficult to avoid and requires a lot of cards being dumped into it in order for it to work.

Alice


She's crazy strong so should receive a few nerfs. Her control and damage is ridiculous so am aiming to rein that in a bit.

Guardian Slasher - everything about this card is crazy (if I could only chose to change one card in the game it would be this one) so I have two ideas on how to change it.

Speed reduced from 6 to 5. Now more things can stun it out and while it's still a massive threat it isn't as bananas.

or

Remove hit effect. It already hits for 7 does it really need to have a chance at hitting for 9?

Soul Eye - Diabolic (this is the boost on Guardian Slasher, didn't I tell you this card was nuts) - change the first sentence to: Name a non-ultra card. A character shouldn't be able to force an opponent to play an Utra.

Soul Gazer - Reduce speed from 8 to 7. Why does a special attack have speed 8? This is another crazy card unfortunately found on the same character. It's utility is so strong that it doesn't have many weaknesses (even it's one damage can be increased to three easily). It can poke out those high speed, hit only one space supers even if the opponent initiated the strike. Since it gives advantage and it Moves Alice a space it can set her up big time for the following strike. Even at speed 7 it's still a super good card it just doesn't let her freely poke out those supers when she isn't the initiator.

Eva

These long game boost characters seem trickiest to balance. Tweaking a number here or there could have a big impact. However, I currently think Eva is the weakest character in the game so would like to see her buffed.

It could potentially be done by a game wide rule addition that says: You discard continuous boosts from play at the end of a strike in which any player was hit.

This makes it so Eva has a potentially viable strategy in creating a lot of space and boosting up. No more opponents just declaring strikes even when they can't hit to get rid of your ConBoosts.

Harnessing Chaos - Increase range from 1 to 1-2 and Power from 1 to 3. This has got to be the worst Ultimate in the game. It needs about 5 boosts in play before it even starts looking like an Ultimate (which is insanely difficult to do). More often then not this card is just two force for movement. Giving it these stat buffs means you still wont play it without Boosts in play but once you hit three or more boosts in play it starts to look good.

I saw a picture of what must have been a Playtest Harnessing Chaos online and it looks over the top. It seems the went the other direction upon release. (This old card and 1 on all stats but got +2 Power, +0-1 range, +1 Armor, and +2 Guard for each ConBoost in play).

Cyber Destroyer - This card gets its name from the fact that if you play it the opponent is likely to destroy you. It's got a cool effect but it is so likely to trade extremely poorly that the risk/reward ratio really isn't there so I'd like to see it gain 2 armor so as not to get completely demolished. This probably goes too strongly against what the attack is meant to do though, being a play to poke out speed 6 no guard/armor stuff. However, the two normals it beats it probably wont see very much, Grasp and Cross, because who's trying to get away from Eva? It technically beats Dive and Assault but it will never see Dive (Unless Lily) and it probably wont see Assault.

Upgrade - Increase armor from 3 to 4. Give it an after effect that reads: Add this card to your gauge. More armor gives her just a touch more sustain and it is essentially a block it should have the ability of a block.

Other Eva Ideas:

It really feels like all of Eva's boosts that give either Armor, Speed, or Power at a rate of +1 per opponent's turn should either have some effect that only lasts if the opponent strikes on their next turn or perhaps even more fun if they gave some sort of now effect to make Eva's bouncing boosts to hand and replaying them have more affect. For example the Armor boost healed for 1 when played, the speed boost let her move 1 space when played, and the power boost let her draw a card when played.

Gabrek


I think Gabrek could use a little buff, he seems to take just a little too much set up to get going (his moves are slower and don't have Guard). But I really don't know what to do to him. Give Rolling Ankle Grab 4 or more Guard and then it's too good. Choke Hold is already his strongest card and it's a good one so no changes there. Why does Lunar Launcher move the opponent so far away? I suppose it is supposed to help get them in the corner and simulate the distance throws put fighters at in fighting video games but in those games the throws KD the opponent which lets the thrower get back in or do mix ups which Gabrek can't do.

Having said all that the biggest head scratcher for me and I think the best place to make changes to Gabrek is his Ultras. His Ultras are so boring they are just slightly different versions of the same attack. One costs less and is about absorbing the opponents attack and then hitting back for more then you took. The other hits for more (possibly the same and likely the same if Gabrek has Exceeded) and has decentish speed but it losses so horribly to Grasp that it is a scary card to play. I'd like to see the lower cost Ultra stay and the expensive one being replaced with something else but don't really know what.

Gabrek feels like he's just a stones throw away from a really cool character.

Baelkhor

Another build up character that is slow to get going, though I wouldn't put him in the same Tier as Eva. He's got some cool and useful attacks so I'd just like to make a few changes to a couple of his boosts to help speed up his game a little bit.

Endless Power - Replace the first part of the boost with: Look at the top three cards of your deck. Either Seal or Discard each one of those cards. This speeds up his game a little bit and it gives him much greater control over what gets sealed so you don't end up losing your most valuable attacks or seal two copies of the same card or a copy of a card you had already sealed or any other bad thing that could happen from randomly sealing the top two cards of your deck.

Apocalypse Seal - at the end of the boost add: Then draw a card. Gets cards and through the deck even quicker.

Morathi

Morathi is a really strong character, he gets to build a hand while striking? and his attacks aren't below average to make up for that fact if anything they're above average (especially in hit confirm) to assist him hit stuff with all his wild swinging. It just seems kind of off though.

Exceed Mode - No longer adds a card to hand. Just picks one of the three cards to be his attack and discards the others. Having a three card hand for every strike is already enough he doesn't need to be able to draw a card in addition to an already strong effect. With this nerf he will have to actually take a strike break once in a while in order to fuel his discard cards in order to do x abilities.

Revenger - Stun Guard reduced from 7 to 6. Discard effect reduced from two cards to one. Why does this card have such high stun guard? is it really that crucial that in addition to all its amazing stats and abilities it needs to stick it to EX Sweep? 6 is plenty of SG. Having the opponent discard two cards is pretty unnecessary, it's just so good and has me wondering why it exists. Discarding one is plenty. It still builds gauge quicker then other attacks so it sill serves a purpose over Sweep. Revenger in its current form is like Alice's Guardian Slasher it just does everything too well.

Devris

While I haven't actually played him his innate kind of looks to be in the same camp as Nehtali's. The math on it just looks off. I have to give up 4 force worth of gauge in order to make my gauge worth an extra force? So I'd have to spend 5 more gauge on force to make going Exceed just barely more efficient (not even sure if it's worth it at this point because you used up an action to go Exceed). Maybe he does end up using a lot of gauge on force (at least 6) in which case it might be worth it. Hoping to play him soon.

Skullman

I haven't played him since he was just a PnP character so don't have solid comments on him mostly just observations.

Skullman is odd. His character card I have the character card on tabletop simulator are quite different. The one I have says +1 power if you wild swing and his Exceed side says +2 power and +3 guard if you wild swing. Skullman on TTS says: When you draw cards you may draw from the bottom of your deck (this is on both sides) and +1 power when you wild swing. Exceed side says +3 power on wild swing.

What's the deal with this guys cards? He doesn't really seem set up to be a wild swing character? He's got two effects that let him control the top of his deck and has little hit confirm. Most of his stuff hits at range 1-2 but then he has a couple of attacks with a minimum range of 3 which makes his wild swings risky. Not sure how he's supposed to be played.

These are the characters I currently think are fine and don't need changes:

Heidi
Lily
Miska
Kaden

These are the characters I haven't played with/against enough to say one way or the other:

Reese
Zoey
Ulrik
Satoshi
Mei Lien
Juno
Skullman
Devris

What do you think of my change list? what would you change if you could?
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Michael D. Kelley
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I agree 100% with your analysis of Gabrek, Vincent, Alice, and Morathi. Haven't played with the rest enough to judge your suggestions.
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Aaron White
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I really enjoyed reading your changes, but Eva is definitely not weak. She is super flexible and can adapt to her opponents. Her card advantage is ridiculous and she has some really cool force/gauge tricks. My favourite is to use an Ultra to play and pay for Liberation, which will then put that Ultra into your gauge. Then you can use that gauge as 2 force to rush down your opponent or change cards, then put it back in your gauge again. This gives you an infinite force engine until your opponent strikes.
Eva's ability is also excellent. Returning a boost to your hand allows you to essentially have played it for free. This makes playing a boost card advantage +1 if she is not stunned first, so she can maintain a full hand for longer periods and spends less turns preparing. You can have your cake and eat it too by playing a boost, then returning it to your hand and playing it later as a strike.
Her boosts can really add up too. Cyber Destroyer and Upgrade may not be much, but your Riot Machine a few turns later with 3 boosts in play (some with + power) will be devastating. Also there is rarely a better moment than when you cause an opponents boost to affect you instead, especially against some characters with crazy boosts.

Regarding Nehtali, I would not change her main ability, but I admit Exceed mode is rare for me. I like to use her ability to recycle Ultra attacks into my gauge for big force gains, allowing me to move around the board without compromising my hand. Not as efficient as Eva, but still pretty good.

With Gabrek, the secret is his boosts. His attacks are situational, but his boosts combined with normal attacks make him monstrous. Stun guard 5 dive? Power 9 sweep? Advancing focus? Gabrek has all the cool tricks.
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What I like about Exceed is how there are multiple uses for cards. Sometimes, it's better to burn an ultra to move 2 spaces or use it to mitigate more damage when blocking as the specific card you use might not be one you'll use for its printed effect this time around.

I won't comment on the balance as I haven't played enough but I want to make sure you guys are considereding everything before we bring on the nerfing hammer. Another viable way to win which I isn't used often (for obvious reasons) is making your opponent burn through his/her deck. Sometimes this is your best option at winning against a specific character and one I see even Gabrek do at times once he gets his good reads in.
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Ron I
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I've played several games of Vincent and so far I agree with your analysis. His kit is quite paradoxical because 3 out of 5 of his Specials are speed 5 or above and low-yielding, which has anti-synergy with his unique ability of generating Guard to power through attacks and trade positively.
And even if you do pump his faster attacks with Guard, they still lose to Cross (opponent moves out of range) and Grasp (you are thrown out of range).

The main saving grace of his kit are his fantastic Ultras. Ballot Fixing is most of the time a guaranteed 4 damage and stun, with Advantage. Even just sitting on 2 Gauge will mean your opponent needs to remain scared of this threatening attack. Especially if they plan to use an Ultra of their own. Phoenix Revival is a monstrous 14-life swing, assuming it absorbs 4 points of damage, hits and heals 4, and deals 6, which is likely because of it's 1~3 range. Just be sure to pump it at least +2 Guard so it doesn't lose to Sweep or other shenanigans.

Although two of his boosts allow him to draw back up, it's not enough to offset the generally high cost of his unique ability. I'd like to see him have another 'pay off' low-speed, high-damage move, with some natural guard (say 2 or 3) to offset the costs.

Here is his full kit for reference:

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Joshua Christensen
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Rook96 wrote:
I really enjoyed reading your changes, but Eva is definitely not weak. She is super flexible and can adapt to her opponents. Her card advantage is ridiculous and she has some really cool force/gauge tricks. My favourite is to use an Ultra to play and pay for Liberation, which will then put that Ultra into your gauge. Then you can use that gauge as 2 force to rush down your opponent or change cards, then put it back in your gauge again. This gives you an infinite force engine until your opponent strikes.
Eva's ability is also excellent. Returning a boost to your hand allows you to essentially have played it for free. This makes playing a boost card advantage +1 if she is not stunned first, so she can maintain a full hand for longer periods and spends less turns preparing. You can have your cake and eat it too by playing a boost, then returning it to your hand and playing it later as a strike.
Her boosts can really add up too. Cyber Destroyer and Upgrade may not be much, but your Riot Machine a few turns later with 3 boosts in play (some with + power) will be devastating. Also there is rarely a better moment than when you cause an opponents boost to affect you instead, especially against some characters with crazy boosts.

Regarding Nehtali, I would not change her main ability, but I admit Exceed mode is rare for me. I like to use her ability to recycle Ultra attacks into my gauge for big force gains, allowing me to move around the board without compromising my hand. Not as efficient as Eva, but still pretty good.

With Gabrek, the secret is his boosts. His attacks are situational, but his boosts combined with normal attacks make him monstrous. Stun guard 5 dive? Power 9 sweep? Advancing focus? Gabrek has all the cool tricks.

I don't think I ever said Eva was weak just that she is the weakest of the cast, some one's got to be. Thanks to the strength of the normals every character has a shot at winning any mu (as far as I know right now this is true). Overall though she's just a bit lack luster.

I'll strongly disagree with you that she has ridiculous hand advantage. Of the two boost focused characters she has the weaker hand advantage and most of her special attacks require two boosts to start being scary so she's still going down on cards even with the kick back to hand. Again back to hand advantage only the first boost she plays when none are on the table can really be counted as an extra draw where a character like Heidi or Morathi just draw cards like crazy (second turn Heidi is so much fun, play a ConBoost and still have a 7 card hand).

I'll agree she does have a cool/good UA it's just her most of her specials and her Ultras (especially Harnessing Chaos, and a lot of her ConBoosts are weaker version of normal boosts) that are disappointing. Riot Machine and Plasma Barrage are at a good power level then Enki Thresher is okayish then Upgrade and Cyber Destroyer are disappointing.

Her cards just need to line up so well. Stuff like get two or three boosts out and keep them there with Upgrade, Cyber Destroyer, and Shifting Technology and then hit them with your real attack at which point you lose all those boosts and you have to try and start the whole process over again. The stars have to align really well for it to work where the B tier and up characters for the most part just have good attacks and play them.

I agree that Revoke is a cool boost, probably her coolest one, but it usually doesn't get to do the fun thing it says on the card. While it is still out there it usually says opponents can't play ConBoosts that don't let them strike. Which is a really powerful effect but you don't get to have fun with it. Maybe this is a misplay not to ConBoost with Revok out there but I doubt if Heidi is dropping her Boundless Boost (+2 power, armor, and guard) into play with Revoke still out there.

Regarding the Ultras being two force from gauge. Did I miss some errata? In the rulebook it very clearly says any card spent from gauge gives one force. But you are saying it is two force and to make it even more confusing the designer of the game during his twitch games is saying it's two force for Ultras from gauge. Did Brad misremember the rule or did he change the rule? And if the Liberation Boost is getting you two gauge you're lucky and if it is getting you more then two either your opponent is doing something wrong or you're getting smacked around because you keep playing Cyber Destroyer, Upgrade, or Shifting Tech to keep it in play.

I noticed one Eva card you didn't try and defend was Harnessing Chaos. This card is undefendable. It is pretty bad when your gauge three cost ult is worse then one of your specials (Riot Machine).

With Nehtali that all depends if the game has been erratad. And that is still a lot of actions spent to add gauge and then use that gauge to move around. And that still doesn't change the power level of her Exceed side very much.

I agree that Gabrek has cool boosts but like I said his specials take a bit too much set up to work. Plus my main gripe with him any way is the Ult problem I talked about. If his Ults were cool and different and that's all they changed I'd be happy.

CharlieX3 wrote:
I won't comment on the balance as I haven't played enough but I want to make sure you guys are considereding everything before we bring on the nerfing hammer. Another viable way to win which I isn't used often (for obvious reasons) is making your opponent burn through his/her deck. Sometimes this is your best option at winning against a specific character and one I see even Gabrek do at times once he gets his good reads in.

This doesn't seem like a viable strategy to me. There are no mill characters in the game and not many have lots of discard effects. Gabrek does have Choke Hold but that is only two cards in his whole deck that could force a great deal of discard. If it was to work it would probably come from Morathi. He's got three specials and an Ult that force discard. However, he seems just as likely to deck himself as he is to deck the opponent.

pvtparts wrote:
I've played several games of Vincent and so far I agree with your analysis. His kit is quite paradoxical because 3 out of 5 of his Specials are speed 5 or above and low-yielding, which has anti-synergy with his unique ability of generating Guard to power through attacks and trade positively.
And even if you do pump his faster attacks with Guard, they still lose to Cross (opponent moves out of range) and Grasp (you are thrown out of range).

The main saving grace of his kit are his fantastic Ultras. Ballot Fixing is most of the time a guaranteed 4 damage and stun, with Advantage. Even just sitting on 2 Gauge will mean your opponent needs to remain scared of this threatening attack. Especially if they plan to use an Ultra of their own. Phoenix Revival is a monstrous 14-life swing, assuming it absorbs 4 points of damage, hits and heals 4, and deals 6, which is likely because of it's 1~3 range. Just be sure to pump it at least +2 Guard so it doesn't lose to Sweep or other shenanigans.

Although two of his boosts allow him to draw back up, it's not enough to offset the generally high cost of his unique ability. I'd like to see him have another 'pay off' low-speed, high-damage move, with some natural guard (say 2 or 3) to offset the costs.

Agreed, so many speed five or greater attacks are strange. Phoenix Ascent is the attack that has me scratching my head the most. It's push effect at that range is kind of sad. It's going to be super mu dependent on how useful that card is.

Majority Whip seems like it is in his kit because after he burns all his cards to land National Guard he is going to need the opponent to be far away so he can rebuild his hand.

Gatling Punch peaks my interest because anything that can beat Sweep clean has got my attention, it just takes so many cards to do it (if you have no Ults in hand it would take a full 7 card hand down to 1 cards to beat Sweep, Hello Majority Whip). If you have the cards it can even stun out Focus which very few cards can say (bye hand).

Agreed about his Ults. They are phenomenal. Ballot Fixing is one of the coolest Ults in the game and Phoenix Revival is right up my alley, health gain and lots of armor? I'll take it. His Ults are what draw me to the character and make me want to give him more goes even though I'm not impressed with his special attacks (he's got some nice boosts though) or his UA.

What do you think of Vincent's Exceed ability? Do you use it often? is it worth the 3 gauge considering how good his Ults are? Where did you get that reference card? That is very handy.
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Skullman is fine (the printed card you have, with +2 power +3 stun guard is the correct version). He is meant to play conservatively at first, and start wild swinging every turn on exceed side so opponents don't have room to breath. He has one card that goes on top of the deck every time it hits, so when he starts playing it, the opponent either has a counter in hand, or they just repeatedly take hits to the face until they dig one up. He also has some fantastic boosts.

Devris is pretty good. Considering that gauge is always better for force from your hand with him, you'll be spending a ton of gauge as force, so his exceed side makes tactical sense to use. He also has a few expensive boosts that really benefit from having an easy way to pay for them without emptying your hand. The biggest downside of his exceed is he loses easy access to more gauge, so he show build up as high as he is comfortable with before that happens.

Baelkhor is my favorite in S1, so what I would do with endless power is leave the first part as is, but make gauging cards optional. You got to be willing to take risks at some point, so go ahead and blind seal cards. But sometimes having to deplete your hand to do it hurts, especially since certain matchups will turn your gauge into just extra force (you aren't going to threaten your finishers against people who have easy counters to them).

I mostly agree on Alice. I wouldn't nerf her quite as hard, but it probably wouldn't hurt her too bad even if she was nerfed hard.

Eva is fine. Give her specials slightly higher numbers in a few places and she'll rise up out of bottom tier without too much effort. But bottom tier as it is isn't horrible far behind the rest of the cast.


Gabrek, Vincent, Morathi, and Nehtahli I don't really have a comment on. Of those, Nehtali is probably the closest to middle of the pack in terms of balance, so she needs changes the least, though it is a shame her UA and exceed sides aren't the most enticing
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Ron I
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ClanNatioy wrote:
Agreed, so many speed five or greater attacks are strange. Phoenix Ascent is the attack that has me scratching my head the most. It's push effect at that range is kind of sad. It's going to be super mu dependent on how useful that card is.

Majority Whip seems like it is in his kit because after he burns all his cards to land National Guard he is going to need the opponent to be far away so he can rebuild his hand.

Gatling Punch peaks my interest because anything that can beat Sweep clean has got my attention, it just takes so many cards to do it (if you have no Ults in hand it would take a full 7 card hand down to 1 cards to beat Sweep, Hello Majority Whip). If you have the cards it can even stun out Focus which very few cards can say (bye hand).

Agreed about his Ults. They are phenomenal. Ballot Fixing is one of the coolest Ults in the game and Phoenix Revival is right up my alley, health gain and lots of armor? I'll take it. His Ults are what draw me to the character and make me want to give him more goes even though I'm not impressed with his special attacks (he's got some nice boosts though) or his UA.

What do you think of Vincent's Exceed ability? Do you use it often? is it worth the 3 gauge considering how good his Ults are? Where did you get that reference card? That is very handy.

That's an interesting way to think of Majority Whip, as a spacing/pacing tool. Pretty effective when considered that way.

Gatling Punch has always been interesting to me as a finisher. It's great lategame for threatening a kill from around 8 HP (assuming roughly ~4 force from hand + ~2 from Gauge + 2 base damage) on a 5 speed attack. But like you said, can also be used for stunning out Sweeps or even Focuses (just make sure you have a way to run away and refuel on cards after!).

I almost never use his Exceed ability, not really because it's particularly lackluster (though it might be) but just like you said, his Ultras are so good they completely overshadow it as far as I'm concerned.

The reference cards are something I put together and have shared here on BGG. You can find the printable version here.
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Re: Vincents exceed

I usually slow play Vincent. I don't expect him to be able to win a damage race with the opponent early game, even if I do hit with an ultra or two. So I really want to exceed, just for that armor. I almost never use his UA on the front side, it seems way too high a cost for the benefit it gives. But turning every single card in your deck into the boost on spike (only 1 less guard) plus letting you use them as said boost without taking an action, up to three times, before every strike is fantastic. I will gladly delay satisfaction on getting off 1 or 2 nice ultras for the chance to drastically increase the stability of my overall game.
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ClanNatioy wrote:

This doesn't seem like a viable strategy to me. There are no mill characters in the game and not many have lots of discard effects. Gabrek does have Choke Hold but that is only two cards in his whole deck that could force a great deal of discard. If it was to work it would probably come from Morathi. He's got three specials and an Ult that force discard. However, he seems just as likely to deck himself as he is to deck the opponent.

It really depends on how the match is going and the mind game aspect of Exceed where milling's viability comes in. I've personally been in situations where just the actual pressure of being at range 1 with a life disadvantage would make me choose to spend force to move out of range 1 to Gabrek (which we all know he is very scary in - Especially Exceeded!). And I'm not talking just 1 force to get out of range 1 because he also has good gap closers among his boosts and strikes. I'm talking "back the heck up out of range". If as Gabrek you manage a hand advantage and a life lead against your opponent, the mil game opens up to you as an option. Your opponent can either burn cards to keep running away or challenge your range 1 pressure which can be uncomfortable against Gabrek.

Milling isn't really something to shoot for. It's more of something that happens as a result of your opponent overestimating his resources during the mind game.
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Aaron White
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Quote:
Regarding the Ultras being two force from gauge. Did I miss some errata? In the rulebook it very clearly says any card spent from gauge gives one force. But you are saying it is two force and to make it even more confusing the designer of the game during his twitch games is saying it's two force for Ultras from gauge. Did Brad misremember the rule or did he change the rule?
Brad posted on the Kickstarter comments "Yes, Ultras generate 2 Force when spent from anywhere." I was the same as you and thought it was 1 Force from Gauge, so it really opened up the game for Nehtali and Eva who can return discarded cards to the Gauge.

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Joshua Christensen
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Rook96 wrote:
Quote:
Regarding the Ultras being two force from gauge. Did I miss some errata? In the rulebook it very clearly says any card spent from gauge gives one force. But you are saying it is two force and to make it even more confusing the designer of the game during his twitch games is saying it's two force for Ultras from gauge. Did Brad misremember the rule or did he change the rule?
Brad posted on the Kickstarter comments "Yes, Ultras generate 2 Force when spent from anywhere." I was the same as you and thought it was 1 Force from Gauge, so it really opened up the game for Nehtali and Eva who can return discarded cards to the Gauge.


It makes sense that you would think this because that's what the rulebook says. Thanks for getting back to me on that question. Hopefully second season rulebook will actually say the new rule and we won't just have to remember things Brad has said in the Kickstarter comments haha.
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Jay Green
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ClanNatioy wrote:

Hopefully second season rulebook will actually say the new rule and we won't just have to remember things Bead has said in the Kickstarter comments haha.

Yes, please. This trend is becoming a pet peeve of mine with lvl 99 games. That and the tendency to treat the published rules as unofficial guidelines by some of the core fanbase who have Brads offhand comments memorized by heart.
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Joshua Christensen
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Played a couple games of me as Vincent vs Reese today. At least in that mu his kit is super awkward. Only two of his five attacks are worth anything.

Phoenix Ascent is surprisingly good vs Reese. The guard on it is just good enough to deal with all of Reese's specials that meet or beat speed 6 (providing you don't have more cards in hand then him). It works especially well at stopping the Gauntlet Furry into Checkmate (Ultra) play which is quite nice.

Majority Whip is phenomenal. It can create a ton of space for you to rebuild your hand/situation and it is just fast enough that it only needs one discard (again providing you don't have more cards then Reese) to have enough guard. Creating that space will stop all of Reese's rushdown for a couple of turns.

Gatling Punch, unless it is going to win you the game don't play it. Reese can put on so much pressure especially if you dump your hand.

Crimson Barrage is really bad in the mu. So hard to land it is going to lose to any of Reese's specials at 3+. The only time you are going to get this to land is in the niches of cases or you have super strong reads on a Focus at range 2 that the opponent wanted to counter your Majority Whip with. Even in that scenario you're trading health for a chance at discard.

National Guard is at best meh. It's another card that would require a sick read (such as chasing down a Cross). It just isn't worth the risk because to even beat that Cross your hand size would go down by three.

To make matters worse his boosts are very lack luster in the mu.

Foundation, the armor boost is nice but Reese doesn't really move you around so the other effect doesn't come into play much at all. The armor boost isn't enough to lose one of your few good specials though. Probably shouldn't boost very much if ever.

Rushdown is probably his strongest boost in the mu (what's a counter attack character doing with a speed boost?) but again it is on one of his only good specials so probably shouldn't ever use the boost. The speed increase doesn't make any of his bad specials become good either.

Fortress Frame is a bad boost in the mu. +5 guard really isn't needed and is just too card heavy to activate. You'll be at -3 cards at the end of the turn which is far too much vs Reese. I'm not sure I get this boost in general. It gives you 1 more guard then the normal means and it is worthless if you have Exceeded.

National Debt is maaaaaybe useful but you probably shouldn't be going down to such few cards to get value out of it any way. Super dicey to try and use this boost vs Reese.

Bunker Buster possibly has some value. Ignoring Guard is on of the best abilities in the game but Reese doesn't make use of a ton of guard. Although, it does take Sweep, Focus, and Gallant Defender from him on the next strike. This is the best boost on his bad attacks.

His Ultras are as good as ever in this mu.

At least vs Reese Vincent doesn't feel like a counter attacking character at all. I was more often trying to outspeed him then tank his attack and hit back harder. It was essentially a keep Reese away, build up and hit with my Ults with out getting hit by Reese's Ults. Kind of off when the counter attacker is trying to play the faster stuff.

The first game I got walked all over because I was trying to hard to make his specials work. Second game I played as described above and won. He just doesn't seem to fit his theme at all.

For those that have played a lot of Vincent how do you find he plays against other styles of play? Does he get good use out of National Guard and Crimson Barrage vs characters like Lily and Miska? Does he feel more like a counter attacker vs characters that can't constantly get advantage? Unless some one convinces me he's got some interesting lines of play vs the wider cast of characters I think I'd rather play Eva then him, lol.
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Aaron White
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I love Vincent, I try to play him as a mixup character. Rushdown with speed? Check. Ignore guard or armor? Check. High speed or high guard? Check. Life gain?

This is where he gets really interesting. I feel like he can use his abilities to do a lot of denial. You can achieve a lot of combinations of boosts and attacks that can counter a lot of your opponents options. Then when the opponent is finally getting some shots in, you undo their work and heal damage done so far. He really does feel like the power armored telepathic dictator that he should be.

The biggest problem is cards. You use a lot of cards doing his stuff, which means you have to draw a lot of cards. Because of this I use his gauge a lot to change cards. This way I can maintain my cool options regardless of the pace of striking going on. But of course Vincent is prone to cycling his deck too fast and losing.

I love to use his Rushdown boost to finish the opponent with Gatling Punch. It feels really thematic when he suddenly cuts loose and unleashes his full strength in a rage. Love this game.
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I agree and disagree, depending.

Nehtali - I don't see her as needing a ton of change, or at least not prioritized above the others. She would need a small tweak at best. Exceeding to deny her opponent the same level of Gauge gain isn't integral, but helps. She is a Gauge-fueled character and her cards reflect this. She uses it differently than anyone else. Granted she's still low/mid tier though.

Vincent - Oh how I love Vincent... I just wish I could get him to work most of the time. Another low/mid, but I've had more success with him once I realized his need for Force was basically a way to slow the character down. Now I prioritize getting him to his Exceed side to help with the Force-eating. But making basically any move 'safe' is great in its own right, A few more points of power on a few cards might go a long way.

Alice - Alice is Bananas. But not as much as Heidi.

Eva - I agree somewhat. She is a character that takes some planning and patience to play. I'd be willing to entertain some thoughts along this line. But being careful to not either lose her uniqueness or make her OP.

Gabrek - Maybe a sliiiiiight Buff. I've had quite a lot of success with Gabrek. I already think he's cool though.

Baelkhor - Another character I haven't really gotten to work. The time it takes to seal enough basic cards from the opponent to make swinginging with those exact cards is just too great to be worth it most of the time. Seal > Exceed > Strike with them. That's a lot of setup, and most of the time the match is over by then.

Morathi - Great. I don't think he needs tweaking, or at least not in the same league with some others. He also loses to Skullman, as I've found out pretty handily.

Devris - Can be bananas if you play him right. If anything he's too good a lot of the time.

Skullman - A really fun character. A middler+ IMO. His kit is odd but gels well, though I see your concerns.



For some others -

Zoey - Block recursion is rather nuts. Might be the only change needed.

Satoshi - Easy for the opponent to play around. Forces them to play sub-optimally, so there's that. But WITH that he's still pretty low on the tier lists. Kind of creates an opportunist character. Might need slight buffing.

Juno - Another bananas character. May need to be nerfed a bit.

Mei Lien - Gotta play her a few times to really understand what she needs to do. But once you do, she can stomp people. Selective use of changing cards action has never been so strong.
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roufus wrote:
I agree and disagree, depending.

Interesting, any thoughts on what you'd change about these characters?

Again my main beef with Gabrek is his Ultras are way too similar. Every other character (as far as I'm aware of) has two really different Ultras. Gabreks are so similar it hurts. His other stuff is pretty cool.

I was thinking about various ways to make block recursion less good but the easiest way to fix it seems to be not letting it happen at all. What if block put the top card of discard in gauge instead of itself?
 
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Jay Green
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roufus wrote:


Alice - Alice is Bananas. But not as much as Heidi.

Satoshi - Easy for the opponent to play around. Forces them to play sub-optimally, so there's that. But WITH that he's still pretty low on the tier lists. Kind of creates an opportunist character. Might need slight buffing.


Oh, Alice played optimally is definitely more Bananas than Heidi. Several of her specials just outright break the normals, and her boosts are shenanigans. For instance, forcing an opponent to use an ultra on a strike.

I'm pretty sure Satoshi isn't low on the tier list, despite none his stuff being impressive just by looking at it. He's not in the top 5, but probably not too far behind them.
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Joshua Christensen
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roufus wrote:

Zoey - Block recursion is rather nuts. Might be the only change needed.


I'm curious how you make the block recursion so effective. I get that when she's Exceeded she gets 4 armor on her blocks for free and can block forever if not stunned but this would require having a good amount of life remaining and for the opponent to be lowish on cards in deck and for the opponent not planning for Zoey to do this. What am I missing?

If the opponent does plan on Zoey doing this they have several tools just within the normal cards alone. They could Parry the known block out of her hand. They could Spike the block, presumably Zoey wouldn't play block while at range 2-3? If that is the case it opens up play for the opponent. Or they could play Reading and force Block into Spike or if a player doesn't have Spike they could force out a different normal and try and eat into Zoey's life total. Granted I haven't played against the block recursion which is partly why I'm curious on how you make it work so I can both try and replicate it and to beat it.

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Alison Mandible
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Rook96 wrote:
Brad posted on the Kickstarter comments "Yes, Ultras generate 2 Force when spent from anywhere." I was the same as you and thought it was 1 Force from Gauge, so it really opened up the game for Nehtali and Eva who can return discarded cards to the Gauge.

Graaah. I mean, that's great, and it makes the game slightly easier to teach. But count me among those annoyed at how often an intended rule is not clear-- or just not present-- on Level 99 game materials.
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Joshua Van Laningham
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This is a change that won't take effect until Season 2. In season 1, Ultras generate 1 Force when spent from the Gauge.
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Michael Condon
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ClanNatioy wrote:
roufus wrote:
I agree and disagree, depending.

Interesting, any thoughts on what you'd change about these characters?


I'd have to really go through them with my design hat on to really make a meaty reply as to what I'd change (and my design hat is currently being used in a rather big project that, once completed, I shall release upon the Exceed community. It will not disappoint. )

But off the top of my head:

Vincent - I agree he needs more cash-out attacks. His 'hundred handslaps' move already comes at the expense of his using force/resources to make other moves safe. Alternatively, he could have a boost or some other effects that helps his resource needs, or make him less resource intensive.

Alice - Either make her more range-specific (instead of "great anyway but bonkers good at perfect ranges) or nerfed in general.

Heidi - If she's meant to be a well-rounded meat-and-potatoes character, fine. Let her keep all her tools, but make them not so friggin strong. A power or utility nerf would do wonder here.

Gabrek - I sympathize a bit with how similar the ultras are. Maybe give them different utility effects. Or one is more utility and the other is much more a 'finishing' move. (13 power is a lot, after all.) Potentially one would be something generally useful and worth the gauge cost, and the other would be a 'threat of power' thing the opponent would have to play around in CASE you have it, if you have enough gauge to use it.

Eva - I haven't played her enough to really give something off the cuff like this. But she can get shut down rather easily in my experience, and if starved of boost tools rather sucks.

Baelkhor - He either needs a speedier way to get those cards sealed that he can use, or a way to stall the game out until they become viable options. Perhaps on hit he can seal whatever normal from their discard? That way he can 'call his shots', but this might be too powerful in its own right. I'd have to play with the levers here. (Even though I do like the idea of the character; just haven't been able to get him to work.)

Satoshi - If he's going to be a 'force opponent to play sub-optimally' character, then he needs to have more tools to that effect and commit to it. If he's a 'hand-size matters' character, commit to that. As he stands now he's this middling mix that doesn't gel well in practice, though has some really fun options. Just barely mid tier if played well.

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Played a few more games with Gabrek today and had a few more thoughts on him. What is Rolling Ankle Grab (RAG) supposed to do for him? Its use seems extremely niche. It only has a purpose vs really slow long range attacks, Which there are only three of in the game (Crimson Barrage, Fire in the Hole, Scorched Earth). It would be a cool card if it had speed 4 so it can compete with a ton more long range attacks or if it had guard 3 so it can still compete with some long range attacks but then it can be used to counter all those low damage push you away attacks + Cross and Grasp. It seems at best it's just another one of those Gabrek cards that require some set up. Probably will need a boost that grants guard and/or armor to get any value out of it. Unfortunately, both his cards that give him guard are also generally good attacks, so not sure if it's worth losing those attacks to make RAG worth using. RAG does become pretty good with guard 3 but the set up it requires will telegraph the play more and make it hurt more if it doesn't win the combat. And do I really want to give up my best attack in Choke Hold to give RAG a chance at doing something? Maybe vs Lily or vs Highly Mobile characters?

RAG has got to be the worst slow speed distance closer attack in the game.

Better Slow Speed Distance Closers
-Gallant Defender
-National Guard (Possibly questionable but does the same thing with out telegraphing the play also hits harder)
-Inevitability
-Ivory Ghost Charge

There isn't a ton of attacks in this category but the only one it is even close to in power level is National Guard which is another bad attack.

There's one normal in particular that feels so obnoxious when playing Gabrek. When playing a lot of other characters I didn't give it much thought but Grasp is a nightmare vs Gabrek. It beats every single one of his specials and ultras. Grasp was giving me fits. The only way he can deal with it if he wants to hit with a special or ultra is have a boost that gives 3+ guard and play RAG or have them in the corner, with your guard, and play Perilous Descent (Perilous Descent with guard 3 would catch up to Cross from any where). If either of these scenarios were true your opponent probably doesn't play Grasp unless you're threating an ult then you can make it work (sooo much set up). Or you need to play a boost that gives you range and be at range 2 or greater then you just don't have to worry about it being played.

So back to my main gripe with Gabrek about his Ults being way too similar. If I would change Death Valley Face Pant with something like this:

Shoulder Ram
Gauge Cost 2
Range 4-5 (edit: maybe 3-5? seems too good though)
Power 4
Speed 6

Hit: move the opponent as far as possible then close 8.

The idea behind this attack is it scares long range fighters to were maybe they don't always want to be super far away from you. Additionally, Gabrek really starts to click once you get the opponent in the corner this helps him do that.

I do find Gabrek to be a really fun character to play (I like drawing cards) and he provides a unique challenge in being the character that really wants to put his opponent in the corner. Most of his attacks are quite intriguing. Shrug off is one of my favorite cards in the game (because it is very clear what it beats and the stuff it beats it does so really well), Choke Hold is an amazing card and I think is his shining star of a special, Lunar Launcher helps in putting the opponent in the corner, and Perilous Descent is one of the main reasons Gabrek is a put your opponent in the corner character (his UA and awful ranges being the other reasons). He feels just shy of solid. Even though I like the character a lot I don't think I'd play him in a tournament.

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I do like what RAG is trying to be, but I agree it could use some tweaking to make it work the way it's (probably) intended. I'd be willing to even give it a bit more speed. It needs to be able to work against dedicated rangers, and at present it isn't terribly good at that. BUT it can't be TOO good due to Gabrek being so friggin great at range 1. The benefit of being successful (and the utility of the next move) has to be factored into its power level. I'd rather it be weaker in general than tweaking the distance it would close. I'd give it a bit more guard to power through some weaker ranged options or maybe +1 or 2 speed. Not necessarily anything else.

(I also agree completely that National Guard Vincent needs some love as well. I really REALLY want him to work! Balancing his 'has the ability to make literally anything safe' motif is really easy to go too OP or UP, as far as balancing is concerned.)

On the other hand, I think grab is *supposed* to be good against him. He could always Read/parry them away They're only going to be able play them theoretically maximum 4 times per game. They aren't going to have those options at the ready all the time.

I think I'd be on board with giving one of his ultras as a dangerous finisher and the other one a board positioning utility tool. That seems to work pretty well, but I'd have to test the ranges.

I'm always a fan of the thinky-brawler, so moving him in that direction while keeping his flavor is going to get the approval from me anyway. I'm biased, basically. I think I would play him in a tournament though, just for kicks. Maybe not if I only got one character as an option though.
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Aaron White
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Grasp is a real problem for Gabrek, so Parry, Reading and Focus are really important for Gabrek.

I love Guard for Gabrek as well, makes Rolling Ankle Grab much safer.

Will post much more later when I have time, I would use Gabrek in a tournament as he has some super mad tricks.
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