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Arkham Horror: The Card Game» Forums » General

Subject: Permanent Card Restriction? rss

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Driss
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Since these do not count toward the deck size shouldn't there be some sort of limit to how many can be included? Are people eventually going to have 50+ card decks full of stacks of these?
There really is no reason not to include these aside from their xp cost. Some of these add additional slots, so having duplicates we could eventually be equipping several trinkets, hands, allies and jackets at once. I just feel its a bit game breaking and opens up some potential cheese.
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Donny Behne
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It's a cooperative game. If people want to cheese at the expense of the experience, it's their choice.
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The Waffler
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I believe you can only have 2 copies of each permanent. Since you can only have 2 copies of a card in your deck at a time.
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B.D. Flory
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This is part of why continuing investigators from one campaign to the next is only an optional variant, rather than the standard rules. The xp cost of permanents, not to mention other cards you might want, presents a rough practical limit.

Aside from Adaptable for 1, each Permanent costs 3 xp. Even if we could take them all, which Lola will be able to, at least, that's 22 xp for one copy of each.
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David Boeren
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XP is the limit. A character has a limited lifespan to earn XP, it's not an abundant resource and you've got to weigh those Permanents against other things you could spend it on.
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Brandon H
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Sindriss wrote:
aside from their xp cost.

There's the rub. You can't exactly ignore this aspect of them.
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Brandon H
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bd flory wrote:
Aside from Adaptable for 1, each Permanent costs 3 xp. Even if we could take them all, which Lola will be able to, at least, that's 22 xp for one copy of each.

Permanents with slots would be a good way to go with Lola, in fact, given her play restrictions.

The core investigators and Jenny can only access four of the existing permanents (total 10xp), and everyone else from Dunwich can only get three (9xp). I don't know how the rest of you are doing, but halfway through Dunwich, I don't think I've totaled 9xp yet.
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Driss
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monorico wrote:
I believe you can only have 2 copies of each permanent. Since you can only have 2 copies of a card in your deck at a time.


Having 2 cards like charisma still allow 3 allies. Even this is a bit absurd imo. Guess I'm going to have to houserule 1 permanent per deck. Pity, I hate houseruling,

CSerpent wrote:
Sindriss wrote:
aside from their xp cost.

There's the rub. You can't exactly ignore this aspect of them.


I guess I will just have to hope the xp costs remains significant and we are not flooded with 1 cost permanents.
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Brandon H
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Sindriss wrote:
I guess I will just have to hope the xp costs remains significant and we are not flooded with 1 cost permanents.

I'm new to LCGs. Is there a history of the designers breaking their games with a bunch of easy-to-access OP cards?
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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CSerpent wrote:
Sindriss wrote:
I guess I will just have to hope the xp costs remains significant and we are not flooded with 1 cost permanents.

I'm new to LCGs. Is there a history of the designers breaking their games with a bunch of easy-to-access OP cards?

There is in some CCGs. My main LCG experience is with Call of Cthulhu: The Card Game, where power creep was avoided, and there were only one or two major instances of expansions with cards that truly needed to be restricted/subjected to errata to maintain game balance and defuse tactics that would otherwise be inexorable.

A co-op is (to my mind) less vulnerable to these hazards, and the usual tendency in co-op expansions is not towards features that make the game easier (powering-up the characters) but harder.
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B.D. Flory
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Sindriss wrote:
Having 2 cards like charisma still allow 3 allies. Even this is a bit absurd imo. Guess I'm going to have to houserule 1 permanent per deck. Pity, I hate houseruling.


Then...don't? If it seems absurd to you, just choose not to purchase those cards.

This is similar to a topic on the FFG board, where someone lamented certain cards were not played enough, and proposed a house rule to "fix" the issue. You don't need a house rule. Just play those cards, problem solved.
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Donny Behne
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Sindriss wrote:
monorico wrote:
I believe you can only have 2 copies of each permanent. Since you can only have 2 copies of a card in your deck at a time.


Having 2 cards like charisma still allow 3 allies. Even this is a bit absurd imo. Guess I'm going to have to houserule 1 permanent per deck. Pity, I hate houseruling,


Why is this an issue when you have control over how you build your deck? From a construction standpoint, you're looking at this choice in a vacuum: you aren't considering all the other cards that can be useful in your deck. When you look at everything possible, you'll realize it's not so easy to just throw a permanent in there every chance you get.

And all of that aside: it's not a competitive game. If people want to cheese it doesn't affect other's experience.
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Driss
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bd flory wrote:
Sindriss wrote:
Having 2 cards like charisma still allow 3 allies. Even this is a bit absurd imo. Guess I'm going to have to houserule 1 permanent per deck. Pity, I hate houseruling.


Then...don't? If it seems absurd to you, just choose not to purchase those cards.

This is similar to a topic on the FFG board, where someone lamented certain cards were not played enough, and proposed a house rule to "fix" the issue. You don't need a house rule. Just play those cards, problem solved.


Self imposed restraints are a sign of poor game design.

kelann08 wrote:
Sindriss wrote:
monorico wrote:
I believe you can only have 2 copies of each permanent. Since you can only have 2 copies of a card in your deck at a time.


Having 2 cards like charisma still allow 3 allies. Even this is a bit absurd imo. Guess I'm going to have to houserule 1 permanent per deck. Pity, I hate houseruling,


Why is this an issue when you have control over how you build your deck? From a construction standpoint, you're looking at this choice in a vacuum: you aren't considering all the other cards that can be useful in your deck. When you look at everything possible, you'll realize it's not so easy to just throw a permanent in there every chance you get.

And all of that aside: it's not a competitive game. If people want to cheese it doesn't affect other's experience.


I never bought into the excuse that a co-op game is exempt from balance issues and it cannot harm the game. Balance may not be as important as in competitive games since there is no tournament play but it can certainly diminish the enjoyment and playability.
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Ken Marley
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I am confused why double Charisma is a problem.

Is the concern that it is to powerful? For 6XP?

Or is the concern that in the future their might be some broken combo enabled by this?

Thanks!
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The Waffler
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youperguy wrote:
I am confused why double Charisma is a problem.

Is the concern that it is to powerful? For 6XP?

Or is the concern that in the future their might be some broken combo enabled by this?

Thanks!


I feel the same way. I don't think it is too powerful. I have played with Charisma, and it didn't feel overpowered to me. Costs a lot of experience. I don't think I would want 2 of them for my deck now anyway.
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Donny Behne
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Sindriss wrote:
I never bought into the excuse that a co-op game is exempt from balance issues and it cannot harm the game. Balance may not be as important as in competitive games since there is no tournament play but it can certainly diminish the enjoyment and playability.


There's a significant difference between an actual balance problem and this assumed balance problem you're proposing. Have you played a game with two copies of Charisma? Did you get three allies into play? Did it break something for you? Do you have actual evidence of an imbalance or are you hypothesizing and proposing a house rule (which you have stated you hate) purely on speculation?

You also glossed over the part where I said all of this ignores the powerful non-permanent cards you'd be leaving out of adding to your deck to follow this "broken" strategy.
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Brandon H
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Sindriss wrote:
Self imposed restraints are a sign of poor game design.

You're complaining about poor design with no evidence that there's even a problem. You seem concerned that the designers might decide to break the XP barrier that keeps the current rules valid and balanced. You might as well worry that they'll make 1 fight, 1 hp enemy that gives you 10 XP.
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Justin Tackett
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If we're still talking about Charisma (or Relic Hunter), which would be the only permanents you'd want/need doubles of, then you'd also have to keep in mind the cost to play those additional cards (allies/accessories) and the space they would take up in a deck.

Do you want to take up 5 or more slots in your deck for allies, so that you can be more likely to get two of them out each scenario? Also, are you going to have the resources available to pay to put them both on the table?

I think Charisma's a great card (although I haven't used it yet), but I definitely don't think it's broken.
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B.D. Flory
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Sindriss wrote:

Self imposed restraints are a sign of poor game design.


Self-imposed restraints aren't a sign of anything about the game design, really, because they're entirely user driven.

You might just prefer a hero/sidekick setup to a hero and his plucky band. Maybe you're more story-oriented, and Charisma for extra allies ruins your Agnes/Peter ship.

More on the gameplay side, there's no guarantee your assessment is correct. Some scenarios benefit from asset soaks, some do not. There are no scenarios it simply breaks. You still have to pay for the allies, draw them, and so on. And if you really want to leverage Charisma, you have to build for it, or risk wasting that xp in games where you only get one ally out. And no matter how much health and damage you can shunt to your army of allies, the doom keeps piling up.

I've played several times with double-charismas. It's better in some gators than others, and better in some scenarios/campaigns than others, but it isn't particularly above the curve.

Part of the reason I suggested not to play cards you think are above the curve is not out of some artificial restraint, but because you may find that the cards you play instead are just as good. Or they may be just as good, but you're just better at piloting a Charisma deck, so Charisma is better in your hands than some other deck that can run rings around a Charisma deck in the hands of another player. Etc.

It's also the case that the utility of many -- I would even say most -- cards vary based on player count and difficulty. Just off the top of my head, in a high player count/high difficulty game, your unique allies are more likely to create uniqueness conflicts if you're playing more allies to make the most of Charisma, and a card like Will to Survive is tremendously useful in simply shutting off a very punishing chaos bag for your turn.
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Jonathon Neff
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Heck, I got one charisma in my dunwich campaign and never drew into a second ally any game after I bought it except for one time, and by that point I didn't have the resources to put that ally out and have 2 at once. It really wants you to build around it, and if you choose to do that then it's really on you at that point, because either you went into the campaign with a subpar deck full of allies that are just taking up space, or you burned through a lot of experience switching up your deck.

There will be broken combos eventually, but I don't think the permanent cards right now are cause for a concern. Heck, most of them want you to build certain decks around them (seriously though,what is relic hunter even good for?) or play a certain way (the boosters have certain stipulations where you need either more resources than normal or you're holding on to cards ect.)

Playing through Dunwich right now, I've hit I believe 7xp before blood on the alter because of the way things went, and even having one charisma feels useless most of the time.
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Creed Buhallin
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I too am having a really hard time seeing why this is a problem.

At 3 XP, is Charisma better than, say, Stand Together? Or Will to Survive? Both of those are awesome cards. Sure, Charisma might let you have two Beat Cops out, or a Cop and a Guard Dog, but it's also the cost of upgrading one of those Beat Cops and adding an Extra Ammunition. At 6 XP you can get three out at once, but what's the opportunity cost? Will a starting deck that can play 3 allies simultaneously be that much better than a deck that's got 10-15% of its cards upgraded? At the very least that seems highly subjective.

Even most of the boosters aren't automatically better. Keen Eye is situational, Blood Pact is pretty much awful, and Higher Education is awesome as long as you've got a build that keeps cards in your hand. Scrapper is probably the only unquestionably awesome choice of the mix.

Permanents as a whole don't seem overwhelmingly better than just upgrading core cards to me, so it's hard to buy into how broken the game is because of them.
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Brandon H
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Buhallin wrote:
Blood Pact is pretty much awful

Blood Pact is amazing on the turn before the agenda advances! +3 on every willpower and strength test for a whole turn, in all phases, at no cost.
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Creed Buhallin
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CSerpent wrote:
Buhallin wrote:
Blood Pact is pretty much awful

Blood Pact is amazing on the turn before the agenda advances! +3 on every willpower and strength test for a whole turn, in all phases, at no cost.

It's going to give the boost for exactly one turn in a lot of scenarios, two at most, and is going to be generally unusable during the final stage of most scenarios when you need it the most. For 3 XP I find that to be very limiting, and by far the worst of the permanent boosters (although Keen Eye gives it a run for its money).
 
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Brandon H
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Buhallin wrote:
CSerpent wrote:
Buhallin wrote:
Blood Pact is pretty much awful

Blood Pact is amazing on the turn before the agenda advances! +3 on every willpower and strength test for a whole turn, in all phases, at no cost.

It's going to give the boost for exactly one turn in a lot of scenarios, two at most, and is going to be generally unusable during the final stage of most scenarios when you need it the most. For 3 XP I find that to be very limiting, and by far the worst of the permanent boosters (although Keen Eye gives it a run for its money).

The last turn before every agenda advance, unless I'm missing something. You can pile on as much doom as you want before the agenda advances because it all goes away when it does. If you can spare the doom earlier, so much the better.
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Jonathon Neff
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CSerpent wrote:
Buhallin wrote:
CSerpent wrote:
Buhallin wrote:
Blood Pact is pretty much awful

Blood Pact is amazing on the turn before the agenda advances! +3 on every willpower and strength test for a whole turn, in all phases, at no cost.

It's going to give the boost for exactly one turn in a lot of scenarios, two at most, and is going to be generally unusable during the final stage of most scenarios when you need it the most. For 3 XP I find that to be very limiting, and by far the worst of the permanent boosters (although Keen Eye gives it a run for its money).

The last turn before every agenda advance, unless I'm missing something. You can pile on as much doom as you want before the agenda advances because it all goes away when it does.


There are not too many scenarios that are more than three agendas though, which I think was the point. If you are on the last one, it's pretty useless because the last agenda is usually a fail ending, so you only have one or two safe times the entire game to use it.
 
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