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Subject: Will monsters with a ranged attack move back if muddled? rss

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Ted Cabeen
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Will a Muddled monster with a single-target ranged attack, adjacent to their focused enemy, move back from their focus? They would normally do so to lose disadvantage, but due to the Muddle, they will be disadvantaged regardless of the move. We ruled that the monster did not move, as doing so did not improve their attack in any way, but I'd be interested in your thoughts.
 
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I would agree with you Ted - mainly from the standpoint that condition tokens can never double up - so once muddled, combat disadvantage is already in effect, and can't become 'double disadvantaged'.

Thematically this works too, as anyone who is 'muddled' is not going to have enough of their senses going on to jump backwards to gain a more optimal ranged attack.
 
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James Palmer
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I'd rule the opposite, that they still move even if it doesn't make a difference.

For instance, if a monster has move 2, and it will take 3 movement points to get to the spot where they can make an attack, they will still move 2 spaces towards the spot for them to attack, even if it doesn't make a difference in the effectiveness of their attack (in this case, no effectiveness at all.)

So I would expect them to try to move to better position, even if that position will only help them in later rounds rather than the current one.
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Alex Florin
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Felkor wrote:
I'd rule the opposite, that they still move even if it doesn't make a difference.

For instance, if a monster has move 2, and it will take 3 movement points to get to the spot where they can make an attack, they will still move 2 spaces towards the spot for them to attack, even if it doesn't make a difference in the effectiveness of their attack (in this case, no effectiveness at all.)

So I would expect them to try to move to better position, even if that position will only help them in later rounds rather than the current one.


The rules state that the monster would move in order to maximize their attack. Their attack is already optimal against their focus so it would not move.
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Ted Cabeen
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Interesting, James. I see your point, but I think I disagree. That would make sense if ranged monsters with excess range also moved back, but they don't. (For example, a monster with a range 4 attack having focus on an enemy only 2 spaces away. It would be a positional improvement and no change in attack for that monster to move back two spaces, but they don't.) Monsters move to reduce their distance from targets as much as possible when they can't attack, but they don't move to increase their distance from targets when they can.
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James Palmer
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Yeah, going to the rules, I disagree with myself too.

They say: "If the monster is performing a ranged attack, it will only move toward a hex where it is within range to perform
its best possible attack."

So when muddled, the monster would already be as close to it's target as it can be, so there's not much reason for it to move.
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David Latimore
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A strict reading of the rules would indicate they don't move, as there is nowhere they can go to attack without disadvatage if they are muddled.

Page 30, new rulebook
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J Desroches
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I feel like if a monster has a ranged attack and innately knows not being beside makes it more effective.. logically it would still move... however you could also argue that since it is muddled it is not thinking logically... so also thematically works that way... You could also argue it is ambiguous and have it be player choice.. or flip a coin... I cant decide...
 
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Richard Ham
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I guess maybe someone should ask in the FAQ thread as Isaac is more likely to notice there, and then circle back here with the definitive answer?
 
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Paul Grogan
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I can see this both ways. Summon Isaac!
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Noel Szczepanski
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It does not move. Monsters never take future turns into consideration. It is already positioned for its best possible attack. There are at least two other threads covering this. I realize at this point it's almost impossible to find anything in these forums.
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Lucas Hedgren
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It has been ruled in the FAQ that a Disarmed monster with a range attack will move as if it had a melee attack that turn. So I think the same principle holds here, and the muddled monster will not move back.
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Jo Bartok
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Felkor wrote:
I'd rule the opposite, that they still move even if it doesn't make a difference.

For instance, if a monster has move 2, and it will take 3 movement points to get to the spot where they can make an attack, they will still move 2 spaces towards the spot for them to attack, even if it doesn't make a difference in the effectiveness of their attack (in this case, no effectiveness at all.)

So I would expect them to try to move to better position, even if that position will only help them in later rounds rather than the current one.


The players moving the monsters do not anticipate future turns. They move the monsters only as if it had unlimited movement /THIS TURN/.

If there was future turn/context anticipation monsters would neither block their team mates (but they do, eg elites often block non elites for no 'sane' reason') nor would they move as meele if they do not attack and are ranged monsters.

There is - to my knowledge - no such concept of awareness but I can see room for House rules
 
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