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Subject: Routing Example Wrong? rss

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Niko
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I just noticed that the example on page 5 of the version 2.1 rules about routing/reduction doesn't seem right to me.
The example reads thus:
Quote:
Example: A German Squad with a Casualty Rating of 4/7 is
Fully Suppressed (Morale of 1). The Squad is in the open and
takes a Rout MC. It would be unaffected on a roll of 1. It
would have to Rout on a roll of 2-7. On a roll of 8 or higher it
would be Reduced at the end of its Rout. If it was also
adjacent to an enemy unit it would be Reduced on a roll of 5
or higher.
I believe that a roll of 8 (or 5 if enemies are adjacent or in the same hex) should not result in reduction.

Quote:
If the unit fails the MC by a sufficient margin compared to its
Casualty Rating, it is also Reduced and Fully Suppressed after
Routing.
The check fails if the roll is higher than the target number. So a roll of 8 does not fail by a margin of 7, and neither does a roll of 5 fail by a margin of 4, since in both cases the roll is equal to the moral value plus the casualty rating.

Am I misunderstanding what is meant by the quoted rules section or should the example numbers be adjusted up by one?
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
Quote:
If the unit fails the MC by a sufficient margin compared to its
Casualty Rating, it is also Reduced and Fully Suppressed after
Routing.

The check fails if the roll is higher than the target number.

The version 2.0 rules said, "If the unit fails the Morale Check by an amount equal to or more than the second number of its casualty rating, the unit is also Reduced"; seems like version 2.1 was made less clear.
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Niko
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kuhrusty wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
Quote:
If the unit fails the MC by a sufficient margin compared to its
Casualty Rating, it is also Reduced and Fully Suppressed after
Routing.

The check fails if the roll is higher than the target number.

The version 2.0 rules said, "If the unit fails the Morale Check by an amount equal to or more than the second number of its casualty rating, the unit is also Reduced"; seems like version 2.1 was made less clear.
That wording is definitely clearer, but I'm interpreting it the same way as the current one: a morale of 1 will be failed by 7 if you roll a 9, not if you roll an 8.
 
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Russ Williams
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
I'm interpreting it the same way as the current one: a morale of 1 will be failed by 7 if you roll a 9, not if you roll an 8.

Hmmm?

If you rolled 2, would you say that you missed by 2? The difference (2-1) is 1: you missed by 1. I can't imagine why you'd think that you missed by 2 if you roll 2 while trying to roll 1 or less.

So similarly if you roll 9, the difference (9-1) is 8. You missed by 8.

And if you rolled 1, then you missed by 0, i.e. you did not miss, you succeeded.

Right? Am I missing something?
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Paul Cornelissen
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kuhrusty wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
Quote:
If the unit fails the MC by a sufficient margin compared to its Casualty Rating, it is also Reduced and Fully Suppressed after Routing.

The check fails if the roll is higher than the target number.

The version 2.0 rules said, "If the unit fails the Morale Check by an amount equal to or more than the second number of its casualty rating, the unit is also Reduced"; seems like version 2.1 was made less clear.

This could get a bit confusing as successful rolls are normally "equal to or less than" not "greater than or equal to". Following the first standard, the unit would stand his ground on a "1", rout on a "2-8" and rout & reduce on a "9-10", or at least that's the way I've been playing the 2.1 rules in this case.
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Niko
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russ wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
I'm interpreting it the same way as the current one: a morale of 1 will be failed by 7 if you roll a 9, not if you roll an 8.

Hmmm?

If you rolled 2, would you say that you missed by 2? The difference (2-1) is 1: you missed by 1. I can't imagine why you'd think that you missed by 2 if you roll 2 while trying to roll 1 or less.

So similarly if you roll 9, the difference (9-1) is 8. You missed by 8.

And if you rolled 1, then you missed by 0, i.e. you did not miss, you succeeded.

Right? Am I missing something?
The problem for me comes from the fact that an equal roll is a success.
Mathematically you are correct, 8-1 = 7 so you fail by 7.
But on the flip side, 1+7 = 8 so a roll of 8 is not a failure against the target number of morale plus casualty rating.

So now instead of thinking that the example is wrong I'm confused which interpretation is right...
The example seems to indicate that my understanding was not correct and no new target number is found. Like Paul I interpreted the rules differently from the example and must just not ave paid enough attention to it so far.

EDIT: Rereading your post I noticed that I'm actually trying to say the opposite of what you understood; If you need a 1 and roll a 2 you missed by 0, not by 2. You needed a 2 to miss and you got it. Compare that to rolling a 1 which I'd describe as hitting by 0.
To me missing by 0 means rolling the lowest number possible to miss rather than exactly what's needed to hit.
I'm wondering if you would describe rolling a 1 as both missing by 0 and hitting by 0?

I can definitely see now how the example makes sense, but it's still not how I'm understanding the rules.
 
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Fernando Robert Yu
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russ wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
I'm interpreting it the same way as the current one: a morale of 1 will be failed by 7 if you roll a 9, not if you roll an 8.

Hmmm?

If you rolled 2, would you say that you missed by 2? The difference (2-1) is 1: you missed by 1. I can't imagine why you'd think that you missed by 2 if you roll 2 while trying to roll 1 or less.

So similarly if you roll 9, the difference (9-1) is 8. You missed by 8.

And if you rolled 1, then you missed by 0, i.e. you did not miss, you succeeded.

Right? Am I missing something?


This is how I see it as well...it is the reverse of a roll for the effect of firing versus an infantry unit...
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Niko
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freddieyu wrote:
russ wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
I'm interpreting it the same way as the current one: a morale of 1 will be failed by 7 if you roll a 9, not if you roll an 8.

Hmmm?

If you rolled 2, would you say that you missed by 2? The difference (2-1) is 1: you missed by 1. I can't imagine why you'd think that you missed by 2 if you roll 2 while trying to roll 1 or less.

So similarly if you roll 9, the difference (9-1) is 8. You missed by 8.

And if you rolled 1, then you missed by 0, i.e. you did not miss, you succeeded.

Right? Am I missing something?


This is how I see it as well...it is the reverse of a roll for the effect of firing versus an infantry unit...
It isn't though, in one case rolling equal to the target number is a success and in the other rolling equal to is a failure.
 
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Russ Williams
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
It isn't though, in one case rolling equal to the target number is a success and in the other rolling equal to is a failure.

Huh? Which one do you think is a failure if you roll equal? I think they are both a success if you roll equal.

If you're firing at someone, then hitting your target number or less is a success (you hit them).

6.2 wrote:
If the roll is less than or equal to the adjusted FP, the target is Suppressed by one step.


If you're making a morale check in the rout phase, then hitting your target number of less is a success (your unit passes its morale check and does not rout).

7.0 wrote:
To resolve a MC, roll a d10. If it is less than or equal to the unit’s current Morale, it passes the MC and may be moved or fired normally.
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Niko
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russ wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
It isn't though, in one case rolling equal to the target number is a success and in the other rolling equal to is a failure.

Huh? Which one do you think is a failure if you roll equal? I think they are both a success if you roll equal.

If you're firing at someone, then hitting your target number or less is a success (you hit them).

6.2 wrote:
If the roll is less than or equal to the adjusted FP, the target is Suppressed by one step.


If you're making a morale check in the rout phase, then hitting your target number of less is a success (your unit passes its morale check and does not rout).

7.0 wrote:
To resolve a MC, roll a d10. If it is less than or equal to the unit’s current Morale, it passes the MC and may be moved or fired normally.
You are right, "success" really isn't the right word; In one case the unit is suppressed if you roll equal to or lower, in the other it routs if you roll higher.

When firing the unit is suppressed when you roll less than or equal to FP. The unit is reduced when you can add the casualty rating to the die roll and still be equal to or less than the FP.

When making an MC the unit routs when you roll higher than the moral. In other words, if the moral is equal to or lower than the die roll the MC is successful. However, stating "the unit routs and is reduced when you add the casualty rating to the moral and not be equal to or under the die roll" is wrong, it is "the unit routs and is reduced when you add the casualty rating to the moral and be under the die roll".

I think it's that difference that's really throwing me off.

Also, I'd be interested to get your thoughts on my edit above
 
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Russ Williams
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To me, it boils down to this: it seems like you're thinking of morale checks during the rout phase backwards, and perhaps confusing yourself by thinking of routing as success instead of thinking of passing your morale check as success.

But in any case, it sounds like you understand the intention now (right?), so now we're just philosophizing about which wording best expresses the intention, and I confess that (perhaps unusually for me... ) I don't have enough care points to get much into that language wrangling. (Perhaps because I don't recall ever being confused about it myself.) (Even if the rule wording seems hazy, the example clarifies the intention, I'd say, and it seems natural and obvious to me that it works analogous to the way casualty numbers are used when firing.)
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Niko
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russ wrote:
To me, it boils down to this: it seems like you're thinking of morale checks during the rout phase backwards, and perhaps confusing yourself by thinking of routing as success instead of thinking of passing your morale check as success.

But in any case, it sounds like you understand the intention now (right?), so now we're just philosophizing about which wording best expresses the intention, and I confess that (perhaps unusually for me... ) I don't have enough care points to get much into that language wrangling. (Perhaps because I don't recall ever being confused about it myself.) (Even if the rule wording seems hazy, the example clarifies the intention, I'd say, and it seems natural and obvious to me that it works analogous to the way casualty numbers are used when firing.)
You are right, thanks to this thread I now see that I misunderstood the rules even though the example points out the correct way.
From here on out it's just debating how the rules should be worded so I'm really hoping Jim comes across this thread

I'm not convinced that it works analogous to firing though;
Firing gets an extra level of success if you can add the CR to the die roll and be lower than or equal to the target, which is a logical extension of being regularly successful if the die roll is lower than or equal to the target number.
The MC gets an extra level of failure if you can add the CR to the target number and be equal to or higher than the die roll, which is not a logical extension of the die roll needing to exceed the target number.

I understand how each one works though, so no need for further debate. Thank you for taking the time to discuss this with me so far!
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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Quote:
Example: A German Squad with a Casualty Rating of 4/7 is
Fully Suppressed (Morale of 1). The Squad is in the open and
takes a Rout MC. It would be unaffected on a roll of 1. It
would have to Rout on a roll of 2-7. On a roll of 8 or higher it
would be Reduced at the end of its Rout. If it was also
adjacent to an enemy unit it would be Reduced on a roll of 5
or higher.


I ran across this thread.

The example is correct. If you have a morale of 1 and roll a 2, you failed by 1 (the margin by which you failed). If you roll an 8, you failed by 7.

At least that is how I was thinking when I wrote the rules. Sorry for any confusion.
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Niko
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Jim Krohn wrote:
Quote:
Example: A German Squad with a Casualty Rating of 4/7 is
Fully Suppressed (Morale of 1). The Squad is in the open and
takes a Rout MC. It would be unaffected on a roll of 1. It
would have to Rout on a roll of 2-7. On a roll of 8 or higher it
would be Reduced at the end of its Rout. If it was also
adjacent to an enemy unit it would be Reduced on a roll of 5
or higher.


I ran across this thread.

The example is correct. If you have a morale of 1 and roll a 2, you failed by 1 (the margin by which you failed). If you roll an 8, you failed by 7.

At least that is how I was thinking when I wrote the rules. Sorry for any confusion.
Thanks for chiming in Jim!
I guess I just confused myself by thinking too much of the perceived difference to the shooting rules.

The example in the rules really should have made it clear to me that I was wrong.
 
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