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Subject: New LOAD Kickster rss

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Bloody Cactus
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I see this is being kickstarted again, which is wierd. and being run over a very short time span...

Would suck to be an original backer, being asked for fork out 100-240$ to update your copy.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/re-load-by-a...

I guess timing is right, Rum and Bones second edition is out now. whistle

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Jake Roesler
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Is the update just more minis? Or rules too?
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Þráinn Gunnlaugur Þorsteinsson
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Quote:
I see this is being kickstarted again, which is wierd. and being run over a very short time span...

Would suck to be an original backer, being asked for fork out 100-240$ to update your copy.


What's weird about it? We regularly see second printings on KS, why there is even another KS project going on right now with a reprint (Gloomhaven). The time span of the project is understandable since they don't have to get funding for the base game sculpting/artwork/tooling cost again (see the funding target for example).

The reprint is because many people have since mentioned missing out on the initial LOAD campaign or regret backing out due to the comment section shitstorm around the initial campaign. Since then Archon has proved themselves with delivery of LOAD (fastest KS mini campaign I've witnessed) and many on the Vanguard of War kickstarter backers wanted to get in on the action. It's basically a reprint + increased rooster of heroes which will be unlocked via SG's (plus a game sheet with alternative activation of heroes, a variant game mode).

Speaking as a original backer, the deal doesn't suck, for 59$ we pledge for getting all the additional heroes (and game sheet) wether they get unlocked for regular backers or not. We also get the alternative art game board add-on for free because of Archon's Loyalty program, Vanguard of War backers get a free exclusive mini.

I'm not affiliated with LOAD in any way but being a backer of the original LOAD campaign and surviving that toxic discussion (mainly from BGG posters) and then seeing the game getting >made on time> with regular updates post campaign >>EVERY SINGLE FRIDAY<< I think that team doesn't have to deal with that shit again.
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Maxim Steshenko
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thrainn wrote:
I think that team doesn't have to deal with that shit again.

So, they've created new, inventive and interesting rules with few clever mechanics?
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thrainn wrote:
Quote:
I see this is being kickstarted again, which is wierd. and being run over a very short time span...

Would suck to be an original backer, being asked for fork out 100-240$ to update your copy.
What's weird about it? We regularly see second printings on KS, why there is even another KS project going on right now with a reprint (Gloomhaven).
"Regularly" is a stretch, given that immediate print-run 2nd editions actually haven't been a KS staple for very long at all.

thrainn wrote:
I'm not affiliated with LOAD in any way but being a backer of the original LOAD campaign and surviving that toxic discussion (mainly from BGG posters) and then seeing the game getting >made on time> with regular updates post campaign >>EVERY SINGLE FRIDAY<< I think that team doesn't have to deal with that shit again.
Awww... the poor, put-upon game designers that plagiarized a rulebook from a competing game, obscured their working identities, and then sent their mindless minions to BGG to shill-rate their amazing gaming creation when gamers had the audacity to call them on their shady actions... gosh I feel so bad for them.

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Shawn barnes
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Seems like just a cash-in, as if they're hoping they don't get called out again after everything came out of the wood work
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Claude nameless
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As usual - haters gonna hate.

Nothing new.

Pledge it if you want. Don'the do it if you do not want.

I just see a lot of happy people with LOAD kickstarter. A few problems happened with the French translated version of the Loading expansion but they are fixing it as fast as they can. A fortunate kickstarter I would say.

But haters gonna hate. That's for sure.
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Jake Rose
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ilgianni wrote:
As usual - haters gonna hate.

Nothing new.

Pledge it if you want. Don'the do it if you do not want.

I just see a lot of happy people with LOAD kickstarter. A few problems happened with the French translated version of the Loading expansion but they are fixing it as fast as they can. A fortunate kickstarter I would say.

But haters gonna hate. That's for sure.


Pretty easy to hate when the company still owes you a ton of product from the AvP KS, has lied to you repeatedly, and hell, even plagiarized the rules for LOAD initially.

They've brought it on themselves. Actions have consequences.
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Brett MacDonald
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ilgianni wrote:
As usual - haters gonna hate.

Nothing new.

Pledge it if you want. Don'the do it if you do not want.

I just see a lot of happy people with LOAD kickstarter. A few problems happened with the French translated version of the Loading expansion but they are fixing it as fast as they can. A fortunate kickstarter I would say.

But haters gonna hate. That's for sure.


That's brushing this off a little too lightly. You don't see people hounding them still in the new project... or in Vanguards of War. They got a lot of scrutiny in the first LOAD specifically for their actions there... and they were very justified. You can't say people were hating when they tried to hide their identity, plagiarized, and threatened legal action. I'm happy it worked out for people but LOAD was a mess and not because of what you deem as haters.

I do agree though it's as simple as back if you like it... and don't if you don't. I just don't think its fair to say people are needlessly hating on them. They (Archon/Prodos) took their licks in the project they messed up and are not being hounded further. They have lost my business but others are free to make their own choices.

They do seem to be improving overall though so hopefully they continue that trend for their future customers. They have certainly burned the bridge with a lot of their old ones though (referring to before LOAD obviously).
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Chris
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Yes I think it's great the LOAD backers received their games in excellent time.

Yet a subset are angry about AVP backers been frustrated, some of which still have items owing after what must be coming up to 2 years since AvP first hit retail, 2 years.

Still calling folk haters and trolls I see, I usually avoid KS comments (apart from that one time) but some LOAD commentators haven't changed their tune even now they still seem to be whipped into rage, despite receiving their successfully backed and delivered game and now having another successfully funded game, maybe they should be less concerned about AvP complainers and focus on their own toxic community of which Archon/Prodos are a considerable part of that problem.

Further I think Eflin/jakecarol and others have explained time and time again that Archon caused multiple problems themselves at the outset of the original LOAD KS campaign yet many here in the threads seem to want to deny at all costs and simply blame trolls for spoiling their game/KS experience.

But hey, hopefully you'll receive your games again, first/second time around and play the heck out of them.
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fightcitymayor wrote:
Awww... the poor, put-upon game designers that plagiarized a rulebook from a competing game, obscured their working identities, and then sent their mindless minions to BGG to shill-rate their amazing gaming creation when gamers had the audacity to call them on their shady actions... gosh I feel so bad for them.


Remember. On KS, everything is fine so long as I get *my* miniatures.

Wonder if HQ25 backers realize that they're not getting the HeroQuest game... whistle
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Brett MacDonald
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eindatadog wrote:
Still calling folk haters and trolls I see, I usually avoid KS comments (apart from that one time) but some LOAD commentators haven't changed their tune even now they still seem to be whipped into rage, despite receiving their successfully backed and delivered game and now having another successfully funded game, maybe they should be less concerned about AvP complainers and focus on their own toxic community of which Archon/Prodos are a considerable part of that problem.


Yeah this is the part that always baffled me. I will admit a couple AvP backers went overboard during the LOAD campaign posting all over the place in the comments etc (and in not great or productive ways)... but there were just as many, if not more, backers being hostile even to people who were just presenting facts. They were even hostile to actual backers asking simple questions because they feared it was another AvP backer. It made for a real toxic comments section that certainly did not help. I imagine many backers were chased off by them (not anyone here)

Most people here (myself included) just wanted people to make educated decisions when backing. It is true I think it was a terrible gamble at the time given the facts... and I took moral issue with Prodos/Archons actions... but I specifically tried not to influence people/advise them one way or the other. And I will happily admit it worked out for backers (and am glad it did).

Backers need to let it go at this point. I know I have. The only reason I still check back from time to time is another one of my kickstarters (Demigods Rising) is directly tied to Prodos right now and waiting on them for minis. The Re-LOAD campaign came up today in the comments so I went back here to check on it

EDIT: just fixing typos
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eflin wrote:
Yeah this is the part that always baffled me.


What? You don't remember Patty Hearst and the Symbionese Liberation Army???

Backers, these days... laugh

Eh, it's simple. Nobody wants to be told their decision is wrong, and, when presented with evidence to the contrary, they'll resort to arguments to convince themselves (often by attacking others) that don't require evidence. Labeling is a common example -- it's just that "haters" and "trolls" are more socially acceptable (including portraying yourself as a victim or martyr).

Never let evidence get in the way of an argument! laugh
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Henrik Schmidt
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eflin wrote:
ilgianni wrote:
As usual - haters gonna hate.

Nothing new.

Pledge it if you want. Don'the do it if you do not want.

I just see a lot of happy people with LOAD kickstarter. A few problems happened with the French translated version of the Loading expansion but they are fixing it as fast as they can. A fortunate kickstarter I would say.

But haters gonna hate. That's for sure.


That's brushing this off a little too lightly. You don't see people hounding them still in the new project... or in Vanguards of War. They got a lot of scrutiny in the first LOAD specifically for their actions there... and they were very justified. You can't say people were hating when they tried to hide their identity, plagiarized, and threatened legal action. I'm happy it worked out for people but LOAD was a mess and not because of what you deem as haters.

I do agree though it's as simple as back if you like it... and don't if you don't. I just don't think its fair to say people are needlessly hating on them. They (Archon/Prodos) took their licks in the project they messed up and are not being hounded further. They have lost my business but others are free to make their own choices.



Hating them on every new KS with the same old arguments gets boring and does not add any new insight. Their history is well known already so haters are beating a dead horse. Some fresh arguments please, that may entertain for a while.
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Jake Rose
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LarkinVB wrote:
eflin wrote:
ilgianni wrote:
As usual - haters gonna hate.

Nothing new.

Pledge it if you want. Don'the do it if you do not want.

I just see a lot of happy people with LOAD kickstarter. A few problems happened with the French translated version of the Loading expansion but they are fixing it as fast as they can. A fortunate kickstarter I would say.

But haters gonna hate. That's for sure.


That's brushing this off a little too lightly. You don't see people hounding them still in the new project... or in Vanguards of War. They got a lot of scrutiny in the first LOAD specifically for their actions there... and they were very justified. You can't say people were hating when they tried to hide their identity, plagiarized, and threatened legal action. I'm happy it worked out for people but LOAD was a mess and not because of what you deem as haters.

I do agree though it's as simple as back if you like it... and don't if you don't. I just don't think its fair to say people are needlessly hating on them. They (Archon/Prodos) took their licks in the project they messed up and are not being hounded further. They have lost my business but others are free to make their own choices.



Hating them on every new KS with the same old arguments gets boring and does not add any new insight. Their history is well known already so haters are beating a dead horse. Some fresh arguments please, that may entertain for a while.


It isn't a dead horse. Every KS they run pulls in new folks who have no idea who Jarek and crew are, let alone what dishonest crap bags they can be.

Frankly the fact folks get upset that guys like me bring it up helps make my point, Folks are worried we scare off NEW potential backers and the New KS won't be as successful as it could be had the new potential pledgers been blissfully ignorant.

I've mentioned before, it is well within Jerek and crew's capability to make our voices largely go away. Give us what they owe us or refund our money for what they cannot deliver. I won't even insist on a public apology or anything. Pretty damned simple. Conversely, as long as I have skin in the game (and I do) I'll let folks know what dishonest crap bags Jerek and crew are.
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Claude nameless
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LOAD was a mess? I think you don't know nothing about HQ25 And other KS that promised a lot many years ago and nothing has been produced yet.

Prodos were judged for what they did with AvP kickstarter (yes, a mess) but not for what they did for the previous kickstarter (Warzone Resurrection - never heard a complain) and for this LOAD. It can be a RnB clone but they did shipped all copies in few months and despite some broken minis and some languages issues they did a decent job.

Also, I'm not interested in Vanguard of War or RE-load, I will not pledge those project so I'might not interested in their success. But enough to talk, I see it is impossible here in BGG to talk about a Prodos/Archon game without starting a rage storm.
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ilgianni wrote:
LOAD was a mess? I think you don't know nothing about HQ25 And other KS that promised a lot many years ago and nothing has been produced yet.

Prodos were judged for what they did with AvP kickstarter (yes, a mess) but not for what they did for the previous kickstarter (Warzone Resurrection - never heard a complain) and for this LOAD. It can be a RnB clone but they did shipped all copies in few months and despite some broken minis and some languages issues they did a decent job.

Also, I'm not interested in Vanguard of War or RE-load, I will not pledge those project so I'might not interested in their success. But enough to talk, I see it is impossible here in BGG to talk about a Prodos/Archon game without starting a rage storm.


At the start of the campaign... yes it truly was a mess. I already listed why in my previous posts in this thread. The reason you think people can't have a productive discussion on this might be because you do not acknowledge those points. You are perfectly entitled to that opinion but it makes it tough to get much further... as it just devolves into

"this happened"
"no it didn't"
"yes it did"

as those points are the crux of why people were upset about LOAD. No one is questioning the fact that LOAD went on to be run very smoothly and delivered well. It looks like Archon/Prodos truly might have turned the corner now... which is great... but what a company does in a tough situation (AvP, early LOAD campaign) is a lot more telling than what they do when everything is going smoothly.

Kickstarter for some is not simply a retail pre-order store where the product is all that matters. For me I care about who and what I am supporting as I view it as a short term investment in their company. I certainly don't fault anyone for viewing it differently though... or for being okay with Prodos actions. All I ask is the same courtesy back and not being labelled a hater for stating simple facts about how Prodos handled themselves.

Prodos has made a bunch of mistakes and still hasn't cleaned up that mess (although to their credit they are trying to slowly)... Archon made a bunch of mistakes at the start of LOAD but has since been great and looks to be continuing in that positive direction. I don't see any reason to question their future projects if they continue in this positive direction as they truly handled LOAD amazingly well post KS and VoW seems to be running similarly. I wish them all the best in that and hope they have grown (both for their benefit and their future backers). I just can't support their products myself.
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I'll just point out that Prodos is STILL accepting pre-orders for the Space Crusade box game (projected delivery Jun-Jul 2016) and has yet to deliver the game to anyone.

This was the test of the Unicast Process now 'owned' by Archon.

So, yeah, Jarek and Crew have clearly cleaned up their act... Or not.

http://shop.prodosgames.com/space-crusade/248-space-crusade-...

Of course I'm sure pointing out facts like this are just me being an ass.
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ilgianni wrote:
LOAD was a mess?


You bet. Claiming an NDA, he REAL creator refused to reveal itself, and BGG'ers tracked down the "creator" name and linked him to an ailing project that the actual creator was involved in. Once that link was found (it was somewhat erroneous), the actual creator coincidentally managed to lift that NDA to reveal themselves as Archon. Further research connected Archon to Prodos through the owner's names, namely family members associated with Jarek. Jarek left all Aliens vs. Predator liabilities with Prodos, moving its staff to Archon. Jarek also threatened to sue BGG, as well as release personal information of his AvP backers.

And just because HQ25 was a mess does not excuse Prodos / Archon's behavior. Ironically, HQ25's latest update showing printed materials shows GameZone's dedication to fulfilling the project, while we have no such signs from Prodos. The latest I read about Prodos and AvP was that they would send you your rewards if you bought something from their website and paid shipping for your rewards (or something to that effect, see the Dakka thread).
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Oh please... weren'the we talking about LOAD? Hq25 DOES NOT excuse Prodos/Archon but while ALL LOAD backers have what they have payed for Hq25 backers have nothing nor are sure to receive something.

You continue to talk about AvP ignoring what Archon did with LOAD, a successfully delivered kickstarter. I honestly don'the care about what they said during the ks or if the copied RnB rules - what CMON did against Archon for this? Nothing. Why? Do you know something about that?

The point is we are here, we cannot talk about LOAD and RELOAD because regularly someone come here and scream "Prodos statry away they are scum". I had enough of that sincerely.
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ilgianni wrote:
what CMON did against Archon for this? Nothing. Why? Do you know something about that?

Any legal actions are an expensive and a controversial effort. An international lawsuit is even more complex and expensive effort. On top of that anyone can rewrite rules The Flow of History with their own words and release as a new game with the different art and card names. And add a shark into this new game. Such action very hard to peruse legally, because game mechanics are not copyright-able (at least in most countries). So, for a company it's simply unfeasible to fight with other company over a rules of a single product. Unlike opposing a trademark of a small indie team to "protect" the recognition of their own rebooted franchise.

But hey! Since where are here to talk about RELOAD, who can tell me how this game is good in being DotA-esk comparing with games like Rum & Bones: Second Tide Guards of Atlantis: Tabletop MOBA or MOBA Wars?
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I got the LOAD pledge on time, great minis, decent game that got immansly improved by house rules.

regarding the rule copying, Archon claims they had a contractor doing the translation of the rules from Polish to English, and they had no idea he made such a "shortcut" in his translation work. CMON turned to Archon after the initial copy was discovered, they asked them to change the text, so they hired a diffrent contractor who actually did a good job.

BTW, the games are not similier for hte most part, they have very different feel and the LOAD mechanics are quite fun. Saying that, i'm slightly more in favor of Rum and Bones, becouse R&B is more wild and fun, and LOAD is much more thought provoking and strategic.
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juggernaut1 wrote:

regarding the rule copying, Archon claims they had a contractor doing the translation of the rules from Polish to English, and they had no idea he made such a "shortcut" in his translation work.


How do you take a shortcut in translating a document and end up plagiarizing another ruleset? That...just doesn't make sense as an argument.
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Idaho11 wrote:
juggernaut1 wrote:

regarding the rule copying, Archon claims they had a contractor doing the translation of the rules from Polish to English, and they had no idea he made such a "shortcut" in his translation work.


How do you take a shortcut in translating a document and end up plagiarizing another ruleset? That...just doesn't make sense as an argument.


I honestly have no idea, maybe the guy saw the game concept, and said to himself " hey, the way the heroes respawn is really similier to rum and bones, i'll just head over there and take that text".

People runing late to a project are usually doing all sort of stupid, half baked things, it might have been one of them.

I knew all the contreversy about Archon before stepping into te pledge, becouse I wanted the models for a board game i'm developing (also MOBA), and thought that if the game that's attached to the mocdels is any good, it's a bonus. I was surprised by the quality of the game and I managed to salvage the game play with some rule additions, so this is a win win in my book.

I feel you and other backers of the original AvP, I don't know the whole story, but I hope it will be sorted out soon.
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ilgianni wrote:
Oh please... weren'the we talking about LOAD?


You were the one who brought up HQ25.

Successfully delivering LOAD does not absolve Prodos-slash-Archon of their promise to deliver Aliens vs. Predator.

Anyway, I looked up KickTraq and RELOAD is predicted-slash-trended to 325K, and their previous Vanguard made 270K. Yeah, some will say that that's not a small amount of money, but the Mantic Terrain KS has already passed 325K with another week to go. The differences are the quality of the miniatures (Prodos far far ahead of Mantic), utility of miniatures (Mantic ahead of Prodos), and reputation of the company (Mantic way ahead of Prodos and behind CMON).

Vanguard is at the pledge manager stage, and Dakkanauts have said that Prodos is taking pre-orders, but not refunding them, nor responding on community forums. Aliens vs. Predator 2 is hitting retail, at least. I'd like to see how well Prodos fulfills these projects, or if they end up funneling money from one project to a previous one again.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1140/678971...

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