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Subject: Points System - Help Needed rss

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Stevan Corrêa
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Even with the changes give by 2.0 rules set, I'm still confused by the points system and also bummed by its lack of flexibility in the way I understand it so far.

Lets admit that most of us - if not all of us - got this game because of theme. We like/love the franshise (aliens, predator or both) and, to me, the idea of a predator pack hunting only make sense for young bloods or clan's special missions as of capturing an Alien Queen - as seen in a few comic books. So, if I want to play with only one Predator, what should I do? Improve its stats? Give it more action points and HP? Put a few Hellhounds up to the "price" of the second predator? Downgrade Marines and Aliens in numbers or stats?

And I'm not even talking about Unleashed, just straight and simple board game.

Is there any fan based app or website initiative to help us with army building for this game as what we have for games such as X-Wing, Armada or Imperial Assault?
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Peer Lagerpusch
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If you want to play only one Predator you can use a Predator Warrior Elder (for 63 pts) or a Predator Berserker Elder (for 82 pts). You just need to add the weapon's points and then you can decide how many Aliens you can play against, but there is no one stopping you from playing a normal predator against a horde of Aliens, but it will be very hard to win.
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Stevan Corrêa
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PeerLagerpusch wrote:
there is no one stopping you from playing a normal predator against a horde of Aliens, but it will be very hard to win

Thanks for your input, my friend. And I know that no one's stopping me from anything, hahah... I just want to play a balanced game and I think this game's points system is still confuse compared to other games. I really believe it could be simpler.

In the case you suggested (63 pts Warrior Elder), what would you suggest for the other 3 factions? And being just one character, wouldn't the number of activations be a problem for some of the objectives (such as the ones that ask you to go to 2 or more different rooms and interact)?
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Peer Lagerpusch
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You are welcome. To be honest I can't remember that I ever used a point system in a game, but I find this one pretty clear and easy. It was also trimmed down, because of Unleased.

If you want to play a balanced game, you should use the suggestion made in the rulebook and start with a 250 points game, because the Colonial Marine Squad itself is 113 points which is way more than your Predator with 78 points (Predator Elder Warrior using a Smart-Disc).

Yes, that is true, the Predators are way harder to kill, but less in numbers, so when one need to go to more than one room it will be harder for the Predators to win.

Are you only using the base game?
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Konstantinos Lekkas
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Hey Stevan

When we were doing the 2.0, we were balancing out stats and linking them to points. The system used to calculate stats/abilities is a mathematical formula, and it cannot be "simply explained", so it is not viable to "tweak" stats that much.

AvP is not an average board game It has a more complex force building system than Battlelore, but that is due to having three very unique and distinct factions.

However, the point costs have been balanced quite enough. The base game is built around 120 points, as you see in the Advanced section.

If you only wish 1 predator, then you should include a number of models to match (or be close to) that predator's cost. Every player is free to house-rule anything (your house after all ). So, if you only wish to play with 1 Queen (+-100 pts), then you get Predators of the same point cost (example, one Youngblood and one Warrior).

If you use just a Hunter, then you reduce the ammount of Marines in the Squad. However, I doubt that in such little points with so few models you will have much fun. I recommend playing with forces of at least 200 pts.

Alternately, if you get the 2nd Ed rulebook (upgrade kit), you can try out the co-op Last Stand with all your predators vs an infinite ammount of Aliens!

Cheers,
K.
 
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Stevan Corrêa
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PeerLagerpusch wrote:
Are you only using the base game?

So far...
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Peer Lagerpusch
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Ok, if just using the base game, a game is around 120 points, like Konstantinos wrote. Read page 42 of the second edition rules and you are good to go.


 
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Stevan Corrêa
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GenChron wrote:
Alternately, if you get the 2nd Ed rulebook (upgrade kit), you can try out the co-op Last Stand with all your predators vs an infinite ammount of Aliens!

Thanks, Konstantinos. In this case, by "all your Predators" you mean the three that come in the base game, right? Can I downgrade Last Stand to play it with only one pred?
I'm sorry to be so insistent on playing with only one predator, lol
In any case, a "online calculator" (app or site) would help a lot on the army building.
 
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Stevan Corrêa
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Well, I'm trying to get used to the points system, I just can't pass some limitations, specially on Marines' squad quantities.

Could you guys tell me if this would be okay/balanced/legal:

1 Alien Queen, 9 Alien Infant Warriors, 3 Alien Facehuggers = 199 pts


1 Predator Warrior (Combi-Stick/Wrist Dart), 1 Predator Warrior (Smart-Disc), 1 Predator Hunter, 2 Hellhounds, 1 Vocal Mimicry = 200 pts

1 Colonial Marines Squad (5 Marines from the base game), 3 extra Marines with Pulse Rifle and Grenade Launcher, 3 Sentry Guns = 197 pts
 
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Christoffer Hansson
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The point system IS the balance. As long as the points are not + or - by say 20 points it should be ok.
 
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Stevan Corrêa
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Zargas wrote:
The point system IS the balance.

Well, that's what it should be, but looks like there is some small tweaks about quantity of models etc that might hurt the core of the point system - for the Forces above, I'm not sure if I can carry 3 Sentry Guns, for example.
 
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Konstantinos Lekkas
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Normally, for each force you need 1 HQ slot to be filled. HQ are usually more powerfull than normal models for more points.

If you are interested in running a "by the book" game, then:
You've got Alien HQ (your Aliens need no tweaking)
You can upgrade one Warrior to Elder (remove hounds/mimicry?).
You can use a Marine Model for a Captain (remove extra models/guns, use a 40mm base).

The Queen is a NASTY opponent (as should be). Use your Sentry Guns wisely.


You can play Last Stand with any number of Models. It is supposed to be used for fun. However, it will be impossible to win with 1 predator.
If you wish to do that, I would suggest you only spawn Infants, and a Maximum of 1 per Spawn Location (create your own spawn chart, see if it works, and tweak accordingly till it works for 1 pred ).
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Stevan Corrêa
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How much would a "Medic with Flamethrower" cost on the overall 113 points of the marine squad?

I'm trying to take one marine out from the squad so I can reach around 80 points to do something like this:

Marines - 1 Colonial Marine Squad without Medic (?)
Aliens - 7 Infant Warriors, 3 Face Huggers (82)
Predators - 1 Elder Hunter with Gatling Gun, 1 Vocal Mimicry (81)
 
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Peer Lagerpusch
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The game is meant to be fun, so have fun with it and just try out your ideas. And if they don't work well, change your troops until it works. Don't think about it too much. There is always luck involved and how good players are in using their troops and their abilities.

But if you want to play by the rules, you have to chose a Warrior Elder first before you are able to chose a Hunter Elder and a Marine Squad always consists of a minimum of 5 Marines including the Marine with the Flamethrower. He is very powerful and might weaken your Squad too much. Maybe use him as Marine with Pulse Rifle instead. But as said before, have fun and give your ideas a try.
 
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Stevan Corrêa
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I know the game is meant to be fun, aren't all games supposed to be fun? laugh

And, again, I know I can play the game the way I want to. That I can house-rule whatever I want and try to find what works and what doesn't. The thing is that when I buy a game I'm not interested in doing the work that the game designer and playtesters should have done. And I'm also aware that I can simply use the setup on the beginning of the missions section, but since the game have so many expansions and encourage you to buy them and even gives you a points system to balance the game, I believe it would be great (not mandatory, of course, but I, particularly would love) to have the points algorithm used on the individual miniature's cost so you can scale the game up and down without having to platters it.

Other games have a similar aspect of unit expansions selling and points system and I think they are good examples of, independently of luck and game style of players, it's possible to balance a game on its points system.

Actually, now that I'm understanding this games' point system the only faction I'm having a issue in this are the Marines. Aliens are very straight forward and the individual unit cost is clear, same with Predator and all of their weaponry. Now I just wanted to know how much a smartgun, a flamethrower, or a medic ability would cost for Marines so that I could, for example, make a custom Ripley (from Aliens) with a flamethrower, or add a smartgunner to a Marine squad instead.
 
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Konstantinos Lekkas
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stevancorrea wrote:
How much would a "Medic with Flamethrower" cost on the overall 113 points of the marine squad?

I'm trying to take one marine out from the squad so I can reach around 80 points to do something like this:

Marines - 1 Colonial Marine Squad without Medic (?)
Aliens - 7 Infant Warriors, 3 Face Huggers (82)
Predators - 1 Elder Hunter with Gatling Gun, 1 Vocal Mimicry (81)


Each Marine model with a Pulse Rifle costs 19 (rulebook). That means you have 5 models with 19 pts (95), plus 18pts in upgrades. Removing one model takes you down to 76, and removing the flamer/medic removes some of the upgrades, so I would say that this is about right for +-80 pts.
In such little points, it does not really matter how much you are off. A failed roll is a failed roll.

I am pretty sure the playtesters and designers (ahem..) have done their job, and the game is as intended (it was not intended for use with 1 predator).
Unfortunatelly, the system of calculations includes more or less 7 excel spreadsheets with internal equations, and will not be distributed.

Cheers,
K.
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Stevan Corrêa
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GenChron wrote:
Each Marine model with a Pulse Rifle costs 19 (rulebook). That means you have 5 models with 19 pts (95), plus 18pts in upgrades. Removing one model takes you down to 76, and removing the flamer/medic removes some of the upgrades, so I would say that this is about right for +-80 pts.

Yup, that's what I thought. And since Flamethrowers' effect is kind of par with Predator's Smart-Disk (15) without the CC part - that is kind of a machete (5), minus the pulse rifle (5), I would say that a Flamethrower would cost maybe as much as the pulse rifle itself (5)? C'mon... help me here, my friend

GenChron wrote:
In such little points, it does not really matter how much you are off. A failed roll is a failed roll.

Roger that!

GenChron wrote:
I am pretty sure the playtesters and designers (ahem..) have done their job, and the game is as intended (it was not intended for use with 1 predator).

Yeah, I believe in you and it's clear that it wasn't. I'm just a crazy fan who wants to "reenact" the movies as fi as possible whistle

GenChron wrote:
Unfortunatelly, the system of calculations includes more or less 7 excel spreadsheets with internal equations, and will not be distributed.

Fair enough, hahah... laugh
 
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Konstantinos Lekkas
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Bah, you don't enjoy a challenge eh? You could figure out the Smart from the commandos

29/24/22. Medic/Smart/Tracker
The Motion would seem expensive, till you play with add-ons and see how many flamers can be fielded.
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Stevan Corrêa
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My maaaan! Thanks
 
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