Barry Miller
United States
Saint Charles
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi all,

Am in the middle of a Vassal game and have a few questions jotted down. The most timely question - as our next turn is Night - concerns the penalty for declaring HOLD orders for the next turn while currently under HOLD orders and while also having made a mandatory withdrawal this turn. (Page 4).

The question arose as we're headed into a Night turn for our next session. My opponent is under HOLD orders for the current (8 pm) turn and also was forced to conduct a mandatory withdrawal during the current turn. Thusly to avoid the 2-token penalty, he needs to declare either ATTACK or WITHDRAWAL for the next turn, which is a Night turn.

But of course, ATTACK is not a legal option for the Night turn, leaving WITHDRAWAL has his only penalty-free choice. But declaring WITHDRAWAL is definitely a bad option in his situation! So per the rules, he either must pay the penalty for declaring HOLD again (his best option), or go with a lousy option so to avoid paying the penalty. Between the two, the best choice for him by far is to pay the penalty and declare HOLD for the Night turn.

THE QUESTION:
Should this penalty apply in this situation (i.e., next turn is Night)? The rules don't provide an exception, so that's not my question. I'm wondering if this situation should be excepted. What do you think? Given that Attack is not an option, it seems a bit harsh to be penalized for maintaining a HOLD posture going into Night only because you lost a combat during the previous turn (7 pm).

So is the right answer that my opponent should've foresaw this possibility and thusly taken action to avoid finding himself in a mandatory withdrawal situation for the 8pm hour? I mean, if he wasn't forced to do a mandatory withdrawal this turn, it wouldn't be an issue and I wouldn't be asking this question!

Or is it merely a lessor of two evils situation, with taking the 2-token penalty the lessor evil? And that somehow, this all makes sense thematically on an abstract level?

Or would this be a candidate for a house rule? I.e., in this very narrow situation, allowing an exception so that the penalty does not apply? But as it appears that Rachel has already considered, and provided, every possible exception to the core rules, I've got to believe that this exception has already been evaluated and still not included for some reason.

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephen Rochelle
United States
Huntsville
Alabama
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The token penalty, among other things, represents the disruption to your artillery train when your army has to withdraw. The Hold orders version of this acknowledges that you are in fact withdrawing even if you haven't formally declared it. Having to take the penalty is appropriate, and I don't think you should house rule around it.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Miller
United States
Saint Charles
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

Thanks Stephen,

I like the perspective you put on the whys/wherefores. That certainly helps!

Though consider that if the next turn wasn't Night, then my opponent would definitely choose ATTACK. So it's not as if he wants to hold again (or be it considered an informal withdrawal as you explained). If he wasn't forced to discount ATTACK as an option due to the night, he'd be on an aggressive posture next hour.

So thematically, is it simply a matter of poor timing? Knowing ahead of time that going into Night would essentially force him to choose HOLD, he should've declared ATTACK for the current turn, so to avoid the consecutive HOLD turns?

I guess my point is that your explanation makes 100% sense when the player has a choice, and nonetheless chooses HOLD again. But going into Night robs the player of that choice, yet is still penalized for making the wrong one. So again, it seems like that he really made "his choice" when he declared his orders at the end of the last turn!

Thx!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephen Rochelle
United States
Huntsville
Alabama
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Consider that Attack orders are also a choice to reduce your battle token pool, though. But yes, there are some odd effects at Night turns.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kåre Dyvik
Norway
Stavanger
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bgm1961 wrote:

But of course, ATTACK is not a legal option for the Night turn, leaving WITHDRAWAL has his only penalty-free choice.


Well, WITHDRAWAL isn't penalty-free. You have to discard half of your artillery tokens when you choose WITHDRAWAL general orders.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Miller
United States
Saint Charles
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

nappeto wrote:
bgm1961 wrote:

But of course, ATTACK is not a legal option for the Night turn, leaving WITHDRAWAL has his only penalty-free choice.


Well, WITHDRAWAL isn't penalty-free. You have to discard half of your artillery tokens when you choose WITHDRAWAL general orders.

Yes.. a great point which had escaped me while I was writing my post!

So I guess the moral of the story is to never lose a combat during the 7 pm turn as the defender! Otherwise, at the end of your 8 pm turn when it comes to declaring your orders for the Night, you'll have to pay some sort of penalty no matter what.

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.