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Subject: Basic Math: How much did I lose by? rss

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Bryan Thunkd
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I played Terraforming Mars last night and the two top scores were something like 108 (winner) and 107 (me). I lamented that I had lost by a point. The winner pointed out to me that she had more money than I, so she would have won a tie-breaker even if I had gotten another point. So I would have needed two points to win.

So... did I lose by a point? Or did I lose by two points?
 
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No One
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Thunkd wrote:
I played Terraforming Mars last night and the two top scores were something like 108 (winner) and 107 (me). I lamented that I had lost by a point. The winner pointed out to me that she had more money than I, so she would have won a tie-breaker even if I had gotten another point. So I would have needed two points to win.

So... did I lose by a point? Or did I lose by two points?


Play a second game. If you win, then you lost the first game by 1 point. If you lose, then you lost the first game by 2 points.

~V
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Benjamine Allen
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In this case, I would say 2 since you would have lost the tiebreaker.
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CHAPEL
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Thunkd wrote:


So... did I lose by a point? Or did I lose by two points?


One point, Infinity points...You just lost.
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Ashley Kennedy
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1.X points with X being the difference between her money and yours.
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Ron
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The tie breaker doesn't matter, since there was no tie. You lost by one point, but would have needed two to win.
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Ryan Byrd
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Pragmatist:

You lost by 1, but needed 2 to win.
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Chris Stanton
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You lost by one point.
You needed two points to win.


With any sport, goal/points difference only affects those on equal points. You weren't.
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Ian Toltz
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MWChapel wrote:
Thunkd wrote:


So... did I lose by a point? Or did I lose by two points?


One point, Infinity points...You just lost.


This.

Play to maximize your score. Play as hard as you can. But if you didn't win, then you lost. That's all that matters.
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Ryan Keane
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You lost by 1 point and she just lost. By responding to your lament that she in fact won by more than 1 point makes her sound like a loser.
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maf man
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Veero wrote:
Play a second game. If you win, then you lost the first game by 1 point. If you lose, then you lost the first game by 2 points.~V

OH, I love this solution!


Thunkd wrote:
I lamented that I had lost by a point. ... So I would have needed two points to win.

So... did I lose by a point? Or did I lose by two points?

you lost by one point and remainder. I agree with you.
 
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Pete
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Is losing by 1 point better than losing by 2?

Pete (doesn't think so, and thinks it doesn't matter)
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Darrell Hanning
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You lost by 1.00000000000000000000000001 points.
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Cris Whetstone
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The more you think about the outcome rather than the experience, the bigger the loss.
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Jordan Booth
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Words are only useful if they successfully transmit an idea. Sometimes it is more helpful to frame your idea from your target's perspective for more successful transmission, than keeping the idea limited to your original perspective.

The idea you are trying to help us recreate in our heads is a difference in score of one. When you say you "lost by one point", most people will imagine in their heads a difference of one. If you say "lost by 2 points" people will naturally imagine a difference of two which is not the same as the idea you meant to convey.

The difficulty of course is learning to recognize a difference of perspective, and then even harder is how to code switch between them. Since this usually takes much back and forth debate, people mostly fall back on the culturally agreed upon languages and idioms that have built up over millennia. So if you use one of those idioms, like "[lower] by one", but mean something other than what everyone has been trained to expect, be prepared to be misunderstood.
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Bryan Thunkd
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Ryan Keane wrote:
You lost by 1 point and she just lost. By responding to your lament that she in fact won by more than 1 point makes her sound like a loser.
Au contraire, I respect her more for rubbing it in that she won by an extra bit!

plezercruz wrote:
Is losing by 1 point better than losing by 2?

Pete (doesn't think so, and thinks it doesn't matter)
Losing by 1 point is worse than losing by 2! You're more likely to play the "If only!" game where you look back at every thing you did that could have gotten you another point.

Well... I did that anyway actually. If I had one more tile on the board I would have taken Landlord from her instead of tying for 5 each. If I had had another 5 bucks in the fifth generation, I could have taken the Gardener milestone instead of losing it due to turn order in the sixth generation, if another player hadn't stolen second place in the banker from me, if I hadn't bought too many cards in the next to last generation, etc.

But it wasn't about winning or losing really. Mostly I was just curious how people would view the margin here, as one or two points.

WetRock wrote:
The more you think about the outcome rather than the experience, the bigger the loss.
Reviewing the game and evaluating what I did wrong and how I could have done better is something I enjoy. It feeds into the "developing skill" aspect of playing games. It doesn't compete with enjoying the game (which I did immensely).
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Rob Nickles
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You both sat down, played a board game, and interacted together.

You're both winners.
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Craig B
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Did you have fun?
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CHAPEL
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Did you enjoy the journey? Did you have Fun? Did it feel like a warm hug? Did you paint rainbows and ride unicorns and fluffy pink clouds? Then you're all winners!

We get it, Carebears.

*Vomit*
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No One
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MWChapel wrote:
Did you enjoy the journey? Did you have Fun? Did it feel like a warm hug? Did you paint rainbows and ride unicorns and fluffy pink clouds? Then you're all winners!

We get it, Carebears.

*Vomit*


Chapel, embrace your inner Playful Heart Monkey!





~V
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Anon Y. Mous
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Asmor wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
Thunkd wrote:


So... did I lose by a point? Or did I lose by two points?


One point, Infinity points...You just lost.


This.

Play to maximize your score. Play as hard as you can. But if you didn't win, then you lost. That's all that matters.


Maximizing your score doesn't necessarily mean you're playing as hard as you can. Let's say there's a hypothetical action you can take that gives you 10 points and all opponents 20 points. Maximizing your score means taking this action at every opportunity, but that would nearly guarantee taking last place.
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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MWChapel wrote:
One point, Infinity points...You just lost.
I'm curious... do you never make any distinctions about what types of losses there are? Let's say that you watch my group play Terraforming Mars ten times. You consistently see the same results, I win, Katie is a point behind and Pete trails far behind us by about 20 points.

One night you show up and are starting a game of TM yourself, Pete and Katie both want to play in your game but there's only room for one of them (the other will have no problem joining another game that's starting up at the same time).

Does it matter to you which of them you'd play against? I mean, they're both losers and it doesn't matter how much you lose by right? Or doesn't it?

Katie's the more competitive player. She consistently comes close to winning our games. So if you wanted a competitive game you should play against her. If you wanted an easier game then you should play Pete. He consistently falls behind in our games.

But if you concede that there's a difference between them, then you seem to be inherently valuing their losses differently. At least to the extent that you're determining which of them is the better player by how well they lose.
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Ryan Keane
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Ethereality wrote:
Asmor wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
Thunkd wrote:


So... did I lose by a point? Or did I lose by two points?


One point, Infinity points...You just lost.


This.

Play to maximize your score. Play as hard as you can. But if you didn't win, then you lost. That's all that matters.


Maximizing your score doesn't necessarily mean you're playing as hard as you can. Let's say there's a hypothetical action you can take that gives you 10 points and all opponents 20 points. Maximizing your score means taking this action at every opportunity, but that would nearly guarantee taking last place.


You could expand it to "maximize the relative difference in your score and the player(s) you expect to be most in competition for the win."

But even then, is winning by 10 points difference between you and 2nd place better than winning by 1 point?

Is it better when you win with a score of 50 points and 2nd place has 25, or when you win with 100 points and 2nd place has 95?

This is a relevant question affecting game decisions because some players would prefer to block players if it means they'll be farther ahead even if their final score will be lower than it could have been, whereas some players are more "high tide floats all boats, as long as mine floats a little higher."
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Bill Cook
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If you had one more point, you still would have lost. If you had two more, you would have one. So I'd say you were 1 1/2 points behind. I see the same thing in sports, where a team is one game behind, but also fails the tie breaker.

And, yes, you could use 1 1/4, 1 2/3, whatever. But 1 1/2 is simplest. And by rephrasing the question as "how many points behind was I at the end of the game" rather than "how many did I lose by" you don't have to worry about the "all losers are equally bad" answers.
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CHAPEL
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Thunkd wrote:


Does it matter to you which of them you'd play against?



Apples to apples, I always play against the stronger player. There's no sport in culling the weak.
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