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Subject: Hot Take - Dems should let the GOP gut Obamacare and punish poor people. rss

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Trey Chambers
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Clinton didn't get the turnout from poor minorities Obama did, and many poor whites switched from Obama to Trump. This in spite of what Trump and the GOP have said they will do over and over and over again, gut protections and benefits for the poor for the benefit of the 1%.

Well you know what? If they are going to keep voting in snakes, they need to get bit until they stop voting in snakes.

And unfortunately, that means a lot of real people are going to have to suffer first. And individually, many of them saw what was coming and voted for Clinton. But as a group, the lower classes need to own this and recognize their mistake. Otherwise they will have learned nothing.

If the Dems keep obstructing, Trump won't get much done and the GOP won't suffer much in 2018 and 2020. If we want real change, there has to be some suffering.
 
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Andre
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Shampoo4you wrote:

Clinton didn't get the turnout from poor minorities Obama did, and many poor whites switched from Obama to Trump. This in spite of what Trump and the GOP have said they will do over and over and over again, gut protections and benefits for the poor for the benefit of the 1%.

Well you know what? If they are going to keep voting in snakes, they need to get bit until they stop voting in snakes.

And unfortunately, that means a lot of real people are going to have to suffer first. And individually, many of them saw what was coming and voted for Clinton. But as a group, the lower classes need to own this and recognize their mistake. Otherwise they will have learned nothing.

If the Dems keep obstructing, Trump won't get much done and the GOP won't suffer much in 2018 and 2020. If we want real change, there has to be some suffering.


Cut the hand off to save the arm? Not sure i buy that approach, if you can fight the changes Trump wants to make, I think the good fight should be fought. Be patient, it's still early in his Presidency, people will suffer one way or another, that goes without saying. Four years of Trump should be more than enough to seal his fate. I would suggest that the time to commit Hari Kari is if he gets voted in a second time, laughs.
 
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Daniel Kearns
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I'd agree if all of the shit the republicans are shoveling only rolled downhill onto red states, but there are poor people who didn't vote for Trump too.
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Steven Woodcock
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The right answer of course is to get back to a truly unregulated healthcare, but unfortunately there are very few others who understand what Rand Paul is saying about this.

I'd be fine scrapping Obamacare completely and just going back to the market as it existed prior to the mess Obama made. At least it worked, and most who wanted insurance could afford it.

Sadly, we'll probably let this mess limp along for a few more years with increasing bailouts, or until there finally aren't any states left to provide any options under Obamacare. Then it'll hit the fan.





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Ferretman wrote:
I'd be fine scrapping Obamacare completely and just going back to the market as it existed prior to the mess Obama made. At least it worked, and most who wanted insurance could afford it.


sixteen percent of the population was uninsured pre-ACA and insurance did not prevent medical bankruptcy because of expense limits that the ACA forbid
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Ferretman wrote:
The right answer of course is to get back to a truly unregulated healthcare, but unfortunately there are very few others who understand what Rand Paul is saying about this.

I'd be fine scrapping Obamacare completely and just going back to the market as it existed prior to the mess Obama made. At least it worked, and most who wanted insurance could afford it.

Sadly, we'll probably let this mess limp along for a few more years with increasing bailouts, or until there finally aren't any states left to provide any options under Obamacare. Then it'll hit the fan.





Ferret


I know you can't wait to get back to a system that will lead to bankruptcy, illness and deaths amongst those not rich, but there really is no purpose in advertising it. Your lack of human compassion has been noted quite a long time ago.

Then again there are new members not yet acquainted with your "value" system, so this must be for their benefit I presume
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Ferretman wrote:
The right answer of course is to get back to a truly unregulated healthcare, but unfortunately there are very few others who understand what Rand Paul is saying about this.

I'd be fine scrapping Obamacare completely and just going back to the market as it existed prior to the mess Obama made. At least it worked, and most who wanted insurance could afford it.

Sadly, we'll probably let this mess limp along for a few more years with increasing bailouts, or until there finally aren't any states left to provide any options under Obamacare. Then it'll hit the fan.





Ferret


Ah yes, the days when any sawbones could put up his shingle and call himself a doctor and happily go about his business of bleeding people, hacking off legs, and drilling rusty augurs into people's fucking brains to cure them.
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Walt
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wifwendell wrote:
Ah yes, the days when any sawbones could put up his shingle and call himself a doctor and happily go about his business of bleeding people,...

I've heard, good for people who don't donate blood.

wifwendell wrote:
... hacking off legs, ...

We still do this in limited cases. Beats dying.

wifwendell wrote:
...and drilling rusty augurs into people's fucking brains to cure them.

A reasonable procedure in the right circumstances. Tetanus is only a problem in anaerobic (no oxygen) situations.

Not that I don't think actual, qualified medical care is a bad idea.
 
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wifwendell wrote:
Ah yes, the days when any sawbones could put up his shingle and call himself a doctor and happily go about his business of bleeding people, hacking off legs, and drilling rusty augurs into people's fucking brains to cure them.


In fairness, the lack of regulation of medicine in the 19th century was reasonable given the shittiness of medicine pre-Koch and Lister. Before Johns Hopkins imported the German model of medical education into the U.S., you'd have been far better going to a native American medicine man than a U.S. doctor.
 
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Kumitedad wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
The right answer of course is to get back to a truly unregulated healthcare, but unfortunately there are very few others who understand what Rand Paul is saying about this.

I'd be fine scrapping Obamacare completely and just going back to the market as it existed prior to the mess Obama made. At least it worked, and most who wanted insurance could afford it.

Sadly, we'll probably let this mess limp along for a few more years with increasing bailouts, or until there finally aren't any states left to provide any options under Obamacare. Then it'll hit the fan. Ooo


Ferret


I know you can't wait to get back to a system that will lead to bankruptcy, illness and deaths amongst those not rich, but there really is no purpose in advertising it. Your lack of human compassion has been noted quite a long time ago.

Then again there are new members not yet acquainted with your "value" system, so this must be for their benefit I presume


At least it's a straight non weaselly answer. You know where he stands.
 
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mightygodking wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
I'd be fine scrapping Obamacare completely and just going back to the market as it existed prior to the mess Obama made. At least it worked, and most who wanted insurance could afford it.


sixteen percent of the population was uninsured pre-ACA and insurance did not prevent medical bankruptcy because of expense limits that the ACA forbid


While I agree that his statement is too strong, that 16% did not have insurance does not mean that those 16% wanted it. Hence Obamacare's penalty for not buying insurance...some people don't want it, no matter how good a product you think it is.

If we had a free market in health care and in insurance, price would be dramatically lower. A friend of mine posted a hospital invoice where she was charged almost $700 for tylenol. The solution to that problem is not forcing other people to pay that $700. That's what hospitals and pharmaceutical companies want of course. But maybe poor people could actually afford to buy insurance if laws weren't preventing competition in insurance and making healthcare more expensive in a million different ways.

Our shitty healthcare market is a direct result of decades of regulations fixing the problems previous regulations caused.
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Jeff Brown
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theodorelogan wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
I'd be fine scrapping Obamacare completely and just going back to the market as it existed prior to the mess Obama made. At least it worked, and most who wanted insurance could afford it.


sixteen percent of the population was uninsured pre-ACA and insurance did not prevent medical bankruptcy because of expense limits that the ACA forbid


While I agree that his statement is too strong, that 16% did not have insurance does not mean that those 16% wanted it. Hence Obamacare's penalty for not buying insurance...some people don't want it, no matter how good a product you think it is.

If we had a free market in health care and in insurance, price would be dramatically lower. A friend of mine posted a hospital invoice where she was charged almost $700 for tylenol. The solution to that problem is not forcing other people to pay that $700. That's what hospitals and pharmaceutical companies want of course. But maybe poor people could actually afford to buy insurance if laws weren't preventing competition in insurance and making healthcare more expensive in a million different ways.

Our shitty healthcare market is a direct result of decades of regulations fixing the problems previous regulations caused.


Can you tell me how an unregulated free market would help people with pre-existing conditions and low income be able to afford medical care. I need to know specifically how this one aspect will work.

Ferretman that question goes to you also
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Pontifex Maximus
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theodorelogan wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
I'd be fine scrapping Obamacare completely and just going back to the market as it existed prior to the mess Obama made. At least it worked, and most who wanted insurance could afford it.


sixteen percent of the population was uninsured pre-ACA and insurance did not prevent medical bankruptcy because of expense limits that the ACA forbid


While I agree that his statement is too strong, that 16% did not have insurance does not mean that those 16% wanted it. Hence Obamacare's penalty for not buying insurance...some people don't want it, no matter how good a product you think it is.

If we had a free market in health care and in insurance, price would be dramatically lower. A friend of mine posted a hospital invoice where she was charged almost $700 for tylenol. The solution to that problem is not forcing other people to pay that $700. That's what hospitals and pharmaceutical companies want of course. But maybe poor people could actually afford to buy insurance if laws weren't preventing competition in insurance and making healthcare more expensive in a million different ways.

Our shitty healthcare market is a direct result of decades of regulations fixing the problems previous regulations caused.


Actually our shitty health care market is a direct result of not following her countries lead in going to Universal Coverage. They seem to achieve as good or better results with less cost.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2014/06/16/u-s-healthc...

Do you have any actual studies to back you up, or is the paean to the free market enough for your personal satisfaction
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Walt
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theodorelogan wrote:
If we had a free market in health care and in insurance, price would be dramatically lower. A friend of mine posted a hospital invoice where she was charged almost $700 for tylenol. The solution to that problem is not forcing other people to pay that $700. That's what hospitals and pharmaceutical companies want of course. But maybe poor people could actually afford to buy insurance if laws weren't preventing competition in insurance and making healthcare more expensive in a million different ways.

Our shitty healthcare market is a direct result of decades of regulations fixing the problems previous regulations caused.

I don't quite agree, but if that friend could even supply two Tylenol at $700, the problem would be solved. Unfortunately that doesn't apply to surgery, chemotherapy, or any number of non-commodity medical services. It's easy-peasy to solve commodity problems, but the rubber hits the road when you're talking non-commodity services.

You've got two bids for a needed arm amputation. One is $100, one is $10,000. If you take the $100 option, your arm may fall off at the shoulder, making further surgery and prosthesis impossible; at $10,000, the surgery is 99% and 1% is routine, not $1,000,0000.
 
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mightygodking wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
I'd be fine scrapping Obamacare completely and just going back to the market as it existed prior to the mess Obama made. At least it worked, and most who wanted insurance could afford it.


sixteen percent of the population was uninsured pre-ACA and insurance did not prevent medical bankruptcy because of expense limits that the ACA forbid



Um...so?

You're preferring to use force instead? That's not even moral.




Ferret
 
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wifwendell wrote:


Ah yes, the days when any sawbones could put up his shingle and call himself a doctor and happily go about his business of bleeding people, hacking off legs, and drilling rusty augurs into people's fucking brains to cure them.


Oddly, if you paid actual attention to what I wrote I didn't say anything remotely like that. I said the best was probably to go back to what we had before wrong thinking folk screwed up our health care.


Ferret
 
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jeff brown wrote:
theodorelogan wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
I'd be fine scrapping Obamacare completely and just going back to the market as it existed prior to the mess Obama made. At least it worked, and most who wanted insurance could afford it.


sixteen percent of the population was uninsured pre-ACA and insurance did not prevent medical bankruptcy because of expense limits that the ACA forbid


While I agree that his statement is too strong, that 16% did not have insurance does not mean that those 16% wanted it. Hence Obamacare's penalty for not buying insurance...some people don't want it, no matter how good a product you think it is.

If we had a free market in health care and in insurance, price would be dramatically lower. A friend of mine posted a hospital invoice where she was charged almost $700 for tylenol. The solution to that problem is not forcing other people to pay that $700. That's what hospitals and pharmaceutical companies want of course. But maybe poor people could actually afford to buy insurance if laws weren't preventing competition in insurance and making healthcare more expensive in a million different ways.

Our shitty healthcare market is a direct result of decades of regulations fixing the problems previous regulations caused.


Can you tell me how an unregulated free market would help people with pre-existing conditions and low income be able to afford medical care. I need to know specifically how this one aspect will work.

Ferretman that question goes to you also


By lowering costs of treatment, making it easier to afford and/or easier for other people to help them afford (friends, family, community, charity, etc)
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Steven Woodcock
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jeff brown wrote:


Can you tell me how an unregulated free market would help people with pre-existing conditions and low income be able to afford medical care. I need to know specifically how this one aspect will work.

Ferretman that question goes to you also



I'd allow insurance (expensive, but if it's all you've got) for pre-existing insurance, don't see anything anti-market about that. You know, like insurance worked before Obama.

There will always be some who don't/won't get it; no hospital ever turned down at least minimal treatment for such cases, and as I recall there were a raft of charities and organizations that helped in these occasions. There was more of these before Obamacare; it's more rare now.

To pretend these never happened, or that such private/charitable insurances never existed, is at best high ignorance of the facts.



Ferret
 
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Jeff Brown
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theodorelogan wrote:
jeff brown wrote:
theodorelogan wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
I'd be fine scrapping Obamacare completely and just going back to the market as it existed prior to the mess Obama made. At least it worked, and most who wanted insurance could afford it.


sixteen percent of the population was uninsured pre-ACA and insurance did not prevent medical bankruptcy because of expense limits that the ACA forbid


While I agree that his statement is too strong, that 16% did not have insurance does not mean that those 16% wanted it. Hence Obamacare's penalty for not buying insurance...some people don't want it, no matter how good a product you think it is.

If we had a free market in health care and in insurance, price would be dramatically lower. A friend of mine posted a hospital invoice where she was charged almost $700 for tylenol. The solution to that problem is not forcing other people to pay that $700. That's what hospitals and pharmaceutical companies want of course. But maybe poor people could actually afford to buy insurance if laws weren't preventing competition in insurance and making healthcare more expensive in a million different ways.

Our shitty healthcare market is a direct result of decades of regulations fixing the problems previous regulations caused.


Can you tell me how an unregulated free market would help people with pre-existing conditions and low income be able to afford medical care. I need to know specifically how this one aspect will work.

Ferretman that question goes to you also


By lowering costs of treatment, making it easier to afford and/or easier for other people to help them afford (friends, family, community, charity, etc)


How low do you envision these costs to be? For instance say someone is born with a heart condition and as a result they need several heart surgeries when they grow up.

How affordable will this be?

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Kumitedad wrote:


Anecdotal data at best in this case; surely a true study of our national healthcare system wouldn't make anybody afraid, would it?



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Ferretman wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:


Anecdotal data at best in this case; surely a true study of our national healthcare system wouldn't make anybody afraid, would it?



Ferret


Definition
Anecdotal evidence is evidence from anecdotes, i.e., evidence collected in a casual or informal manner and relying heavily or entirely on personal testimony. ... Thus, even when accurate, anecdotal evidence is not necessarily representative of a typical experience.

Try looking up definitions of terms before you use them. Lessens the chance of looking quite so ignorant when you use them. I do believe you have the same problem with the definition of the word "hearsay" as well

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Jeff Brown
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Ferretman wrote:
jeff brown wrote:


Can you tell me how an unregulated free market would help people with pre-existing conditions and low income be able to afford medical care. I need to know specifically how this one aspect will work.

Ferretman that question goes to you also



I'd allow insurance (expensive, but if it's all you've got) for pre-existing insurance, don't see anything anti-market about that. You know, like insurance worked before Obama.

There will always be some who don't/won't get it; no hospital ever turned down at least minimal treatment for such cases, and as I recall there were a raft of charities and organizations that helped in these occasions. There was more of these before Obamacare; it's more rare now.

To pretend these never happened, or that such private/charitable insurances never existed, is at best high ignorance of the facts.

Ferret


Except insurance didn't work like that pre obamacare. People were routinely denied any insurance for preexisting conditions. My wife being one of those.

So your answers is to let charities take care of the problem? Do you know how many people declared bankruptcy for medical bills? These people were not being taken care of. Things were not working just fine before.

I know that there are still problems, but the answer is to move forward not backward.
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jeff brown wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
jeff brown wrote:


Can you tell me how an unregulated free market would help people with pre-existing conditions and low income be able to afford medical care. I need to know specifically how this one aspect will work.

Ferretman that question goes to you also



I'd allow insurance (expensive, but if it's all you've got) for pre-existing insurance, don't see anything anti-market about that. You know, like insurance worked before Obama.

There will always be some who don't/won't get it; no hospital ever turned down at least minimal treatment for such cases, and as I recall there were a raft of charities and organizations that helped in these occasions. There was more of these before Obamacare; it's more rare now.

To pretend these never happened, or that such private/charitable insurances never existed, is at best high ignorance of the facts.

Ferret


Except insurance didn't work like that pre obamacare. People were routinely denied any insurance for preexisting conditions. My wife being one of those.

So your answers is to let charities take care of the problem? Do you know how many people declared bankruptcy for medical bills? These people were not being taken care of. Things were not working just fine before.

I know that there are still problems, but the answer is to move forward not backward.


Poor Ferret. If he were in the MLB, his performance during the past two weeks would have definitely sent him to the farm team.

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Quote:
Privately-owned hospitals may turn away patients in a non-emergency, but public hospitals cannot refuse care. Public hospitals, funded by taxpayer dollars, are held to a different standard than privately owned for-profit hospitals. This means that a public hospital is the best option for those without health insurance or the means to pay for care.

Public and private hospitals alike are prohibited by law from denying a patient care in an emergency.

Once the emergency has been resolved, the (private) hospital is under no obligation to provide treatment

Hospitals are not shy about trying to collect from uninsured emergency patients. Their efforts can involve the hospital’s internal billing department, collection agencies, and even lawsuits. The collection process can be unpleasant: wages may be garnished and liens may be instituted on property.


Private hospitals may, in non-emergency situations, deny or discontinue care.



http://law.freeadvice.com/malpractice_law/hospital_malpracti...
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I just saw Trump on oz tv talking to our prime minister who is on a brief trip to Washington.

Trump actually said Australia has a better health care system than the US. I wonder if he knows we have socialised health care in Australia.
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