Troy Newhoff

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So I backed the newest Kickstarter for Dig Down Dwarf at the collector's edition pledge ($100) because I love Dwarven themed games and who can't resist giant gems??? Lol.

It arrived this week and not only was it missing all of the acrylic cubes, the quality of the large gems and small mithril gems is absolutely horrible and unacceptable.

The mithril gems are very badly scratched on all faces and one is so "wrinkled" it's not funny.

All large gems have bad spots where they were snapped off the injection trees.

The black gems have any absolutely horrible finish and almost look spray painted.

The purple and green gems have holes drilled through them on the back.

I have pics of all the problems but don't know how to load them via phone to here.

I contacted Jason Glover of Gray Gnome Games via Kickstarter about the issues and requesting a return and refund of the game due to poor quality.

I got this initial response:


"If you give me a list of the gems you are having an issue with I can check out stock and make an attempt to replace them.
In regards to a refund, I am not able to do that at this time. All funds from the project are going towards shipping or have been spent on manufacturing. I will try and help make things better if I can."

Well, the problem was I had an issue with nearly every gem and another backer posted the same issues with their copy so I knew from also working in manufacturing for a living that all of these are most likely crap quality so he wouldn't be able to make it right for me. As a result I informed him of this and requested a return and refund again. This is the reply I received :

"There is no guarantee in regards to this product. I am willing to replace some of the gems and send you the cubes that seem to be missing. I am not doing any refunds. Contact whoever you like in regards to this issue.
If it makes you feel better, Grey Gnome Games will likely be closing its doors at the end of this year. I will be shutting down the corporation end of things. I am honestly done with the publishing end in this industry. I have a great day job and a family and no longer need the stress attached to running this business. I started this as a hobby and have made little to no money and I am fine with that. It was never about making money. But I do not need the stress when I could simply be designing games and having someone else take on the burdens of running a business. I honesty do not have the funds in the corporate account at this time to be issuing any refunds."


I'm livid and am out $100 but I just wanted to make sure everyone knows to steer clear of Jason and Gray Gnome Games!

 
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Ess Why
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I have no dog in this fight and I'm sorry you are not happy with your KS game, but after looking at the project on KS, I would say the creator's level of communication and willingness to engage places him in the top 1%. I wish some of the crappy KS projects I have backed had his level of communication
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Matt Brown
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echarlie wrote:
I'm livid and am out $100 but I just wanted to make sure everyone knows to steer clear of Jason and Gray Gnome Games!


Should be easy since they are closing down.
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Rich Shipley
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If you want to be sure of component quality before buying a game, don't back games on Kickstarter.
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What's the deal with board games?
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Kickstarter is not a store or preorder system. You got a game, so consider yourself lucky and move on.
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Troy Newhoff

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I'm sorry but being on Kickstarter does NOT warrant producing a game with crap quality like this!

This is by far the worst I've ever received.

Defend him if you wish but this is not acceptable and never should be.
 
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Pete
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echarlie wrote:
I'm sorry but being on Kickstarter does NOT warrant producing a game with crap quality like this!

This is by far the worst I've ever received.

Defend him if you wish but this is not acceptable and never should be.
Nobody is defending him. They're just pointing out that kickstarter is a risky purchasing environment, and you seem to have encountered one that didn't turn out.

Pete (doesn't think anyone is condoning the conduct in question)
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Brant Benoit
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plezercruz wrote:
echarlie wrote:
I'm sorry but being on Kickstarter does NOT warrant producing a game with crap quality like this!

This is by far the worst I've ever received.

Defend him if you wish but this is not acceptable and never should be.
Nobody is defending him. They're just pointing out that kickstarter is a risky purchasing environment, and you seem to have encountered one that didn't turn out.

Pete (doesn't think anyone is condoning the conduct in question)


At least he delivered. Count yourself lucky that at least you have gotten the game.
I would rather have questionable quality than nothing.
Best to look at the positives when you back on Kickstarter. ....well that applies anywhere really.
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Troy Newhoff

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Yes I understand that backing items on KS is basically buying sight unseen and sure, quality issues can happen BUT the inability or unwillingness to make things right when it's their fault for allowing crappy quality components to go out the door in the first place is unacceptable IMO.

 
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Rich Shipley
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echarlie wrote:
I'm sorry but being on Kickstarter does NOT warrant producing a game with crap quality like this!

This is by far the worst I've ever received.

Defend him if you wish but this is not acceptable and never should be.


I don't think that's what people are saying. It sounds like a project where things didn't go well and I can understand the disappointment. Unfortunately, with a KS project sometimes things don't go perfectly.

If I were you, I'd take him up on the offer to replace anything missing or severely malformed and move on. If I liked the game, but couldn't stand the pieces, I'd find my own replacements. Otherwise sell it off for what you can get.
 
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Pete
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echarlie wrote:
Yes I understand that backing items on KS is basically buying sight unseen and sure, quality issues can happen BUT the inability or unwillingness to make things right when it's their fault for allowing crappy quality components to go out the door in the first place is unacceptable IMO.

You're right. But now what?

Pete (agrees with you but thinks you have little recourse)
 
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echarlie wrote:
I'm sorry but being on Kickstarter does NOT warrant producing a game with crap quality like this!

This is by far the worst I've ever received.

Defend him if you wish but this is not acceptable and never should be.


I don't think anyone's saying it's acceptable, but it is the risk anyone (myself included) takes when handing over money for a product that doesn't exist, and won't for another year (or however long it takes!)

I get that it sucks the quality isn't up to scratch for what was proposed as a 'Collector's Edition' but as others have said, the fact that you're even getting such responses from the creator is a good thing and puts him ahead of some other project creators.

It's tough (I speak from some experience) but it is what it is.

Edit: to add the quote I was responding to as I got ninja'd many times over!
 
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You need to understand that backing a project on Kickstarter is always a gamble and I don't think they have any sort of money-back guarantee on any products. Yes, it's crappy to receive a product of lower quality than you thought, but you should have read the fine print that you agreed to when you backed the project.

The guy did what he could and received bad manufacturing. He spent all the money that everyone pitched in to back the project and you want him to refund you out of his own pocket? That's not how Kickstarter works, and the sooner you come to terms with that, the sooner you'll stop being disappointed.

The only way to guarantee satisfaction with Kickstarter is to not use it. Plain and simple. You could wait to buy it in retail, or buy it second hand if you're worried that a Kickstarter might not live up to what they promised. But when you decide to use Kickstarter, you're deciding that you're taking a risk on a product. Like many people have said, Kickstarter is not a preorder system for retail products.

I know it all sounds harsh, but I'm not trying to be a dick here. It's just the nature of Kickstarter.

To put things in perspective, you're disappointed that you paid for a game and the quality was bad, so you think your money was wasted. I paid for a game that never made it to production. Boy do I have egg on my face. Okay, so that was about 20 bucks that flew out the window. You spent 100 bucks and you got your game but the quality is bad. Which is worse? Well I also paid about 500 bucks for a big set of miniatures, maybe only 200 bucks worth which was delivered, and the rest has been stuck in limbo for years, and I don't know if I'll ever see that product I paid for, but I know I won't see that 300 bucks that I paid for the rest of the stuff. The reason I don't complain about these things? It's Kickstarter. It's a gamble. You can't ask for a refund when you lose a gamble.
 
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David Zelasco
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I'm not really sure why so many people are effectively saying: "Tough. This is how Kickstarter works" or "I WISH I got my product" when Troy's main point seems to be:

echarlie wrote:
I'm livid and am out $100 but I just wanted to make sure everyone knows to steer clear of Jason and Gray Gnome Games!


Is it because he didn't post this thread in the Reviews sub-board along with pictures?
 
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Rich Shipley
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AmanuJaku wrote:
I'm not really sure why so many people are effectively saying: "Tough. This is how Kickstarter works" or "I WISH I got my product" when Troy's main point seems to be:

echarlie wrote:
I'm livid and am out $100 but I just wanted to make sure everyone knows to steer clear of Jason and Gray Gnome Games!


Is it because he didn't post this thread in the Reviews sub-board along with pictures?


I think this was originally posted to General Gaming and an admin moved it to the game specific forum. Otherwise I wouldn't have seen it.

I'm sorry this guy didn't get a game of the quality he wanted, but looking at the KS comments, he started complaining even before he got the game.

The creator seems to be doing his best to address any problems with missing pieces. There's no reason for him to refund money after delivering a playable game.
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You should post some pics. Also, do they look like that in all of the CEs or just yours?
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Jason Glover
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Okay, so I am the publisher behind Dig Down Dwarf (also the designer). I have a long history on Kickstarter and have never had an issue with a backer until this one. That is 12 KS campaigns (all successful) over the course of 5 years. I have always delivered and that is the reason that the majority of my backers are repeat backers.

Troy (the creator of this thread) was quite negative in the comment section of the Kickstarter even before receiving his rewards. It was as if he was trying to add gasoline to a fire that didn't exist. He even had other backers asking him to stop bad mouthing everything and to stop being so negative.

Yes, I had a couple other backers at the Collector's Edition level have some concerns. One was missing something from the box and I immediately contacted them and I will be shipping them the missing pieces. Another had some issues with about 6 or 7 of the large gems that come with the Collector's Edition, and again I contacted them and got a list of the gems and I am sending new ones. I did not even ask for pictures or anything.

Troy on the other hand was so negative before even receiving his game, that I was not at all shocked by his first email to me demanding a shipping label and a full refund. I honestly felt, and still feel, that Troy would not have been happy no matter what and was seeking a refund due to buyers remorse. The bottomline is that I immediately contacted Troy, just like I did with the others, and offered to replace said gems without any proof of damage. I figured if a couple people had issues that perhaps some bad units got by. Troy became more upset and threatened to contact KS and start a smear campaign.

One of the nice things about being a small publisher, and one that will likely be hanging it up at the end of the year, is that I do not have to put up with this type of behavior. Perhaps the correct business move is to simply refund people no matter what and to adhere to the age-old claim that the customer is always right. But you know what, they are not always right and I am not a huge corporation like Walmart. I made a stand with Troy and I am sticking by it.

If Troy still wants replacement gems, I am fully happy to meet in the middle and replace any damaged or warped games. No questions asked. I am not however, giving him $100 because he has buyer's remorse.

Also it should be added that I have received numerous messages and pictures from other backers with their copy of the Collector's Edition and they are overjoyed. Value is in the eye of the beholder. Troy claims he got ripped off, but other are more than happy. These happy customers include Ken Franklin who is a volunteer at Calliope Games at there booths at many conventions and he even has a game being published later this year and Lance Myxter (aka Undead Viking from Undead Viking Reviews) who messaged me earlier today to say "It looks amazing".

For some reason I felt the need to defend myself. I am not going to back down to a customer that is being unreasonable. I have never had a complaint made against me to Kickstarter. Troy's threats and even the creation of a thread like this in the general forum says a lot. Now I have to figure out where I am being bad-mouthed on Facebook as he said he was going to post their as well.

Lastly, in regards to Grey Gnome Games shutting down, I am only closing the corporation end of the business. I publish games as a hobby and for the love of creating board games, but the publishing end has taken up too much of my free time. I have a full-time day job and a family. Now is the time for me to focus on them and get back to simply designing games and letting publishers deal with all of this sort of stuff. I never made a lot of money doing this, again it was a way to self-publish some of my own designs and to publish a few other designs from other designers that I really liked.

Thanks for listening to my side of this issue.

Jason
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GreyGnome wrote:
Now I have to figure out where I am being bad-mouthed on Facebook as he said he was going to post their as well.


https://www.facebook.com/groups/theboardgamegroup/permalink/...
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Jason Glover
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Just waiting to be invited into the group so I can respond. He is even lying to people and saying I never contacted him!!! I responded to his email the same day! What a smear campaign. I cannot wait to respond.
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Well.

I Have received right today my standard copy of the game. I haven't yet seen it, but my son at home is telling me that silver gems seems all ruined. I will check them later.

But I would like to pull out some drama from this thread, revealing that no one couldn't expect something different, and that it was everything right under everybody's eyes... right before the KS campain would have ended.






 
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