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B-17: Queen of the Skies» Forums » Rules

Subject: Oxygen fire, dropping out of formation, aborting etc. rss

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Kathrin
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More n00b questions. First time with a fire, and having to drop out of formation. Could someone please check whether I'm doing this correctly or if I'm overlooking some rules?

The B-17 is in the designated target zone, zone 2, target St. Omer.
Combat has been resolved.
Anti-aircraft fire leads to 5 shell hits; apart from superficial wing damage, there is an oxygen fire in the tail section, landing gear brake out, tail gunner seriously wounded.

I assume the shell hits are simultaneous? So the tail gunner, even though he was in theory hit later (later die roll than the one for oxygen), is already seriously wounded and can't put out the fire. So I designate the port waist gunner (adjacent compartment) to do the job. He succeeds. Does he move back to the waist section? Does he stay in the tail? Does the wounded tail gunner have to be moved out of the way?

Since there is no vacancy anywhere in the plane (nobody got killed yet), the B-17 now has to drop out of formation, right?
Under 13.2 Out of formation options it says under b) "An out of formation B-17 may choose to complete its mission and bomb the target, but this is not recommended."
As I'm already in the target zone, is there any reason why I would abort instead of still bombing the target? I'm aware that the bomb run is more likely to be off target due to being hit by flak over target, but are there any negative consequences for continuing the mission at this stage?

At what step in the sequence of play does 13.1 d) "If out of formation and at a low altitude [...] the B-17 is within range of light anti-aircraft fire from the ground" come into effect? Is this resolved after fighter combat, as with flak over target? I know that according to an erratum, the altitude drop required by the loss off oxygen does not occur immediately, and instead at the beginning of the next turn, but at what step of that (and future) turn(s) is the low-altitude flak resolved?
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Michael
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Kathrin

Shell hits are assumed over the length of time after fighter attacks up to bomb dropping, ( each zone is 50 miles across ), so simultaneous in game terms yes.

Think of Adjacent compartment basically meaning , grabs an extinguisher and stands in doorway and puts the fire out.
you don't really leave your compartment.

There is a spare place in the radio room for wounded/killed crewmen.
(stay in formation!!)
Or swap places, SW Tail Gunner with a Waist Gunner to still man the Tail Guns, the remaining Waist Gunner can swap between port/starboard in between fighter attack waves.

you would not leave formation until the next zone anyway, bomb away
no other negative modifiers, other than Flak and Weather effects.

Light Flak would be resolved after any fighter attacks.

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Kathrin
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Thanks, Michael.

So I guess in a way, it was lucky that the tail gunner was wounded because that allows me to "store" him in the radio room, which allows me to stay in formation (at the price of not being able to use the tail guns any longer due to the lack of oxygen in that section)?
If he hadn't been wounded, I would have had to drop out of formation since there is no spare room for someone who isn't wounded or dead?
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Michael
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We few,we happy few,we band of brothers;For he today that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother: be he ne’er so vile;And gentlemen in England now-abed Shall think themself accurs’d they were no here That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day.
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marble911 wrote:
Thanks, Michael.

So I guess in a way, it was lucky that the tail gunner was wounded because that allows me to "store" him in the radio room, which allows me to stay in formation (at the price of not being able to use the tail guns any longer due to the lack of oxygen in that section)?
If he hadn't been wounded, I would have had to drop out of formation since there is no spare room for someone who isn't wounded or dead?


Yes that's about right.
Losing the tail guns seems bad, but only attacks from 6 level cannot be hit.
6 high the top turret and radio room can cover, and 6 low, the ball turret guns cover.

You can still move crewmen to either PC and RR, but they take no part until another space is free.

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/117010/crew-positions
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Kathrin
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They just need to make it through one zone with enemy fighters so I guess losing the tail guns isn't that bad. Could have been a lot worse. And it seems preferable to incurring the out of formation penalties.
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John Kovacs
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Another reason to drop or jettison the bombs is to avoid the dreaded shell hit in the bomb bay that might set them off, obliterating the plane and crew. Just speaking from experience...
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Rob Koch
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Infomanohio wrote:
Another reason to drop or jettison the bombs is to avoid the dreaded shell hit in the bomb bay that might set them off, obliterating the plane and crew. Just speaking from experience...


Yeah. Bomb bay hits are bad (happened more than once!) ... only thing worse is the dreaded BIP (Burst In Plane) .... You can survive these.... I did once but the plane was shot down shortly after that.
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Jim P
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About the oxygen out, I do not remember there being a free oxygen outlet in the radio compartment. I don't have the rules on me but I believe that Kathrin's bomber would have had to drop to 10,000 feet after the bomb drop, Target Zone I/B.

As for the term "Adjacent Compartment" Yes this would be the Waist compartment but the waist gunner would have had to physically enter the tail section to put out the fire. It is a long way from the waist to the rear gunners position to get to the fire. You can see in this picture the distance from the waist to the tail section... A long way indeed!



The waist gunner would then return to his position or if the B-17 dropped to 10K ft he could stay and operate the rear guns. Albeit only hitting on a "6", but that is better than letting a Butcherbird (FW190) have its way with your bomber from your six. (hitting on a 3+)

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Jim P
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robkoch2112 wrote:
Infomanohio wrote:
Another reason to drop or jettison the bombs is to avoid the dreaded shell hit in the bomb bay that might set them off, obliterating the plane and crew. Just speaking from experience...


Yeah. Bomb bay hits are bad (happened more than once!) ... only thing worse is the dreaded BIP (Burst In Plane) .... You can survive these.... I did once but the plane was shot down shortly after that.


Bomb bay hits are a BLAST, just ask me about it.......
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Kathrin
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jasta6 wrote:
About the oxygen out, I do not remember there being a free oxygen outlet in the radio compartment. I don't have the rules on me but I believe that Kathrin's bomber would have had to drop to 10,000 feet after the bomb drop, Target Zone I/B.

I've printed out Jude's "Collected Errata" from the file section and according to it, there was an erratum in The General Vol. 20, No. 6 "Question Box" which says:
Quote:
Q. Where can seriously wounded crewmen be placed on the plane to be out of the way, but still have heat and oxygen?
A. One additional man may be placed in the pilots' compartment and in the radio room.

If I understand correctly, that would mean that my B-17 doesn't have to drop to 10,000 feet.

Quote:
As for the term "Adjacent Compartment" Yes this would be the Waist compartment but the waist gunner would have had to physically enter the tail section to put out the fire. It is a long way from the waist to the rear gunners position to get to the fire. You can see in this picture the distance from the waist to the tail section... A long way indeed!

Looks like the poor tail gunner will have to wait a while... How does he get to the radio room, by the way? Do I have to imagine him dragging himself there, or would the waist gunner do that after putting out the fire?
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Ted Leiker
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marble911 wrote:

Looks like the poor tail gunner will have to wait a while... How does he get to the radio room, by the way? Do I have to imagine him dragging himself there, or would the waist gunner do that after putting out the fire?


You can imagine it either way, but if it's a serious wound one would probably imagine a fellow crewman would have to go get him.

Jim's schematic is helpful to picture the situation, but that schematic also looks a bit stretched and the people too small. I remember climbing all through a static B17 parked at Chino, CA about 25 years ago and it felt cramped inside. The distance between the waist guns and the tail wasn't that far, but it would be difficult dragging an the dead weight of an unconscious, (probably 140 pound) man back to the waist since the tail wheel well is jutting up into the fuselage and would be a significant obstacle to get by.
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Richard Morey
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marble911 wrote:
jasta6 wrote:
About the oxygen out, I do not remember there being a free oxygen outlet in the radio compartment. I don't have the rules on me but I believe that Kathrin's bomber would have had to drop to 10,000 feet after the bomb drop, Target Zone I/B.

I've printed out Jude's "Collected Errata" from the file section and according to it, there was an erratum in The General Vol. 20, No. 6 "Question Box" which says:
Quote:
Q. Where can seriously wounded crewmen be placed on the plane to be out of the way, but still have heat and oxygen?
A. One additional man may be placed in the pilots' compartment and in the radio room.

If I understand correctly, that would mean that my B-17 doesn't have to drop to 10,000 feet.

Quote:
As for the term "Adjacent Compartment" Yes this would be the Waist compartment but the waist gunner would have had to physically enter the tail section to put out the fire. It is a long way from the waist to the rear gunners position to get to the fire. You can see in this picture the distance from the waist to the tail section... A long way indeed!

Looks like the poor tail gunner will have to wait a while... How does he get to the radio room, by the way? Do I have to imagine him dragging himself there, or would the waist gunner do that after putting out the fire?


I have gone over "The Question Box" in General, vol 20, #6 and find no mention of any ability to locate additional crew in either the cockpit or radio room.
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Kathrin
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Zychik wrote:
marble911 wrote:
jasta6 wrote:
About the oxygen out, I do not remember there being a free oxygen outlet in the radio compartment. I don't have the rules on me but I believe that Kathrin's bomber would have had to drop to 10,000 feet after the bomb drop, Target Zone I/B.

I've printed out Jude's "Collected Errata" from the file section and according to it, there was an erratum in The General Vol. 20, No. 6 "Question Box" which says:
Quote:
Q. Where can seriously wounded crewmen be placed on the plane to be out of the way, but still have heat and oxygen?
A. One additional man may be placed in the pilots' compartment and in the radio room.

If I understand correctly, that would mean that my B-17 doesn't have to drop to 10,000 feet.


I have gone over "The Question Box" in General, vol 20, #6 and find no mention of any ability to locate additional crew in either the cockpit or radio room.

You are correct. The file I used seems to be referencing the wrong Vol./No.
I actually found the quoted part in Vol. 23, No. 5, p. 46.
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Richard Morey
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Found it. Thanks.
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