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Subject: People want to games with good choices, but then complain about AP rss

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Ian N/A
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So I have not played this game, but have ordered it. I love five tribes and this seems to have similar elements in it even though it is described as being very different. The discussion I wanted to have is, people seem to rate games higher if they have difficult, tough choices, and many options, but then there are many negative comments about AP. It is not just in the reviews of this game but others I enjoy. Does anyone else find this interesting? We want to games to be deep and interesting, but not require too much thought that we have to wait for those decisions. Also in this thread, if anyone has any examples of great games with good choices that you believe would not be described as Ap risk, post them here. Thanks.
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Jason Farris
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Citrus Heights
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thephantomhennes wrote:
So I have not played this game, but have ordered it. I love five tribes and this seems to have similar elements in it even though it is described as being very different. The discussion I wanted to have is, people seem to rate games higher if they have difficult, tough choices, and many options, but then there are many negative comments about AP. It is not just in the reviews of this game but others I enjoy. Does anyone else find this interesting? We want to games to be deep and interesting, but not require too much thought that we have to wait for those decisions. Also in this thread, if anyone has any examples of great games with good choices that you believe would not be described as Ap risk, post them here. Thanks.


I think you make a few big assumptions:

1. we want deep and interesting and not much thought
2. somehow difficult and tough decisions are mutually exclusive to quick play.
3. taking time to think through a turn is AP.

Sometimes people like light games with light decisions and quick play. Sometimes people like more in-depth and brain burning games that take longer to play. Sometimes people just want something else.

In my opinion, AP issues are not taking a some time to make a tough decision. AP issues are having to reassess the entire game state after each move, or sitting there seemingly paralyzed by decisions. This is where everyone else is waiting on one player every turn. Sure, that one player may just be in a group of players that happen to process faster, but often it is more of a need to try to take everything into account. Some might argue that this is the only way to play, but I would point out that in life good decisions are often made with as much data as one can get at the time but not complete data. If we always went through every possible course of action, we would get nothing done. Instead we prune options off based on the likelihood of success or personal preference and move on with the smaller decision set. In my experience, people with AP cannot prune well.

Sometimes the design promotes AP and sometimes not. I have found that games with some down time between players can be beneficial for planning your next move as long as that down time does not reset much of the board so planning is useless. If it resets the board, then you are bored and cannot plan until your turn and slower thinkers will drive people crazy. Also, if you are playing one of the more common game types where everyone takes one micro action in order after another, AP prone people will stand out as they reassess each game state change and the flow stops with them every time.

So it may be the game or it may be the player that causes AP. I cannot play the game smash up because it moves relatively quickly for most people, but the constant change in game state traps some people. In fact, I would argue that base game Smash Up is not a bad test of AP.







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Pedro Sequeira
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what jason said, this game and five tribes both make it so you cant really think of anything until your turn comes, which leads to more downtime

also, there are lots of possibilities, and you basically have to test them all in your head to figure out the ones that gives more points

one game that is pretty deep and i dont find has this problem is terra mystica

you usually dont have to think about every possible combination and how many points it will give you, you need an overall idea of what you need to go, be it dig/secure a certain spot, or do a couple of things to make sure you have money, or play it slow (many small actions) so you can be the last to pass the turn, etc, so, it's still deep, but after a couple of plays the AP is gone.. on five tribes i dont think it will ever go away ^^
 
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