Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
31 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Agricola» Forums » General

Subject: Zman V mayfair rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Russ Rusnak
United States
Westchester
Illinois
flag msg tools
I am planning on buying a copy of Agricola and I am curious about which is better, Mayfair or Z-Man (while I can still get it). I have only played the Z-Man version and rules, however it seems as though people are dancing around flat out saying that the Z-Man version is the better game and that the Mayfair version is prettier. I guess what I am really interested is are there any significant differences in the quality of play and do they make the game more or less challenging?

When it comes to differences

1) The card decks

I know Mayfair has significantly shrunk the deck of cards. Have they just picked their favorites or have they created and strengthened new cards to the point that they have changed the game? I’ve seen a few comments that seem to state that the Mayfair cards make feeding so easy that they actually seem to take away from the strategy involved in the game (dumb it down). I guess I’m curious to know if that is true.

2) Rules

Are there any actual rule changes (as compared to clarifications regarding something that may have been ambiguous in the Zman rules)? If so what are they and do they make the game more or less strategic? Thoughts on how any rules changes would affect the strategy of the game would be appreciated.

3) The boards

I’ve heard about the new Mayfair boards, does new mean cosmetic or is there something that changes the play of the game?

4) Number of players

I know the Zman version is a 5 player version while the Mayfair version is a 4 player version with the option of purchasing a 5-6 player expansion. Does the difference translate to other changes that would be different in the change of numbers in the Zman version? (We usually play with 3, on rare occasions we get a 4th, can’t remember the last time we got a 5th)

5) Quality of pieces

I know Mayfair has Meeples for animals, vegetables, and resources. What did the final Zman versions come with? I got the impression they came with Animeeples only and the cubes and disks for vegetables and resources.


6 Anything else?

Are there any other differences that should be addressed.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Baier
United States
Grand Forks
North Dakota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
FYI, here's the most recent previous thread posted in the forums:

Is it worth to have the new edition of Agricola when you have already the old one?
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Rusnak
United States
Westchester
Illinois
flag msg tools
Re: Zman V Mayfair
I saw the other thread before I wrote mine. I have heard about a "new" board, does it change the game or is it just new artwork? I had heard the cards were now so powerful that they eliminated allot of the strategy (regarding feeding) from the game. Is that true or just one person's opinion? Did Mayfair change any rules, (they've done it in other reprints)and if so how do they affect the quality of the game? Are there any other changes that affect the play of the game
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Troy Peters
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
The new board doesn't change the game. It adds a few side locations that you can use if you want to, and they may be helpful for new players. However, the game is otherwise identical except for the lack of diversity of cards that you get in the old version.

If you don't care much about how pretty the game is and you primarily enjoy just playing the games instead of looking at how pretty they are and want to get a lot of game for your money, get the Z-Man version. But if you enjoy the collecting aspect of the hobby and like to have and can afford pretty things, get the new version. They will continue to come out with new decks and upgrades that will primarily be applicable to the new version (since Mayfair wants to make money too.) But the 2007 version will provide you with all of the enjoyable play time that you will probably ever want.

The cards in the new version are primarily selected cards from the E, I, and K decks. I don't think they change the game that significantly, however I haven't compared each of the cards.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derry Salewski
United States
Augusta
Maine
flag msg tools
badge
I'm only happy when it rains...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have and love the zman version. I rate it a 9. It's an amazing game. Nothing about the new edition raises it to a 10.

I wouldn't mind playing it with the new cards to see what happens, but I won't buy the whole game again.

And then they're letting wizkids sell minis which you have to buy if you want new cards. And they're not even different for different colors!

Whichever version you can get cheapest is a great game. Both will be obnoxious to expand though.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mattias Elfström
Sweden
Unspecified
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Farmers of the Moor is not yet available for the new version. This is a deal breaker for me. I will not consider the new version until FotM is released.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paris

Monforte de Lemos
LUGO
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
1. The marketing on the new cards is that what you get is a totally balanced reduced set so there's never a need to do a draft, because each hand will be balanced. IT's true that a project was begun to rebalance the cards, but gamers don't seem to know exactly how this card set was chosen by Mayfair - one of the Play Agricola gamers commented (in that thread linked) that they had all been in the middle of testing lots of changes when Mayfair's new version was released and they were puzzled by the unbalanced selection. So take the marketing with a pinch of salt.

The biggest non-aesthetic difference between the Z-Man version and Mayfair version is that the Z-Man game is a board game in a box that you can play the crap out of for the rest of your life. The Mayfair version is a starter kit and you'll be collecting booster packs for a long while yet.

2. As stated by others the game is the same.

3. See above.

4. I'm not sure I understand your question.

5. This depends on which edition you find I believe.

If Mayfair had released their version with a full card count rather than trying to convert Agricola into a collectible card game then their new edition would have a been a smash hit. The fancy new boards and all the chrome would have been nothing but buzz and excitement.

Unfortunately they let their greed get away with them.... the marketing is that they wanted to keep the price down and they even had the gall to claim that their version is cheaper than Z-Man. But by the time you buy enough boosters and expansions to match what you got from Z-MAN you'll end up paying a LOT more.

The saddest part is that soon new gamers won't even be able to just buy Agricola in a box anymore -- everyone will be stuck with one option: the starter kit.

6 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ross
Australia
flag msg tools
I raced to track down an old version - I prefer the components and the rectangular boards. Plus the cards mean I can play it for much longer than any other game I've owned.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grant
United States
Cuyahoga Falls
Ohio
flag msg tools
One of the best gaming weekends in Ohio since 2010. Search facebook for "BOGA Weekend Retreat" for more info!
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
RussRusnak wrote:
2) Rules

Are there any actual rule changes (as compared to clarifications regarding something that may have been ambiguous in the Zman rules)? If so what are they and do they make the game more or less strategic? Thoughts on how any rules changes would affect the strategy of the game would be appreciated.

There is actually one rules change. It's very minor, but it deals with how some of the Major Improvements score:
In this Reply, Ponton wrote:
There is one real difference: the Joinery, Pottery, and Basketmaker's Workshop now require you spend the resources to get VP at game end, whereas in the old Agricola you merely had to have them in your supply.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joshua Watkins
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
So I have the new Mayfair version, and have extensively played the Zman version. I'm very happy with my purchase of the Mayfair version. As others have said, the chrome is very nice, but I will focus the discussion on the cards.

It is true that the cards make feeding easier. I definitely wouldn't say the ease takes away from the game at all though. There is still stress and a fight for resources constantly, it just seems that the scores are slightly inflated as you have more time to grab points.

Those saying Agricola is going to become a game where you have to continuously buy boosters are both right and wrong in my opinion. As of now, there are 96 total occupation and minor improvement cards in the Mayfair "starter box" vs the 302 (E+I+K decks) in the zman edition.

The Mayfair "booster packs" for the A and B deck are said to have an additional 120+12(5-6 player cards) occupations and minor improvements. So if you buy one of the "boosters" you would have 228 cards. If you buy two of the "boosters" then you would have 360 cards.

In other words, if you buy just two of the boosters, you have a game with more variability than the Zman version anyway. At which point you could stop buying any additional boosters that come out. In my opinion it is worth it, but I can see how some people would want a "complete" game right from the get go. The main difference is the Mayfair game will be possible to expand further, whereas the Zman is extremely expensive to expand with the popular decks (Gamers and WC deck specifically).

Just my .02c, but as I said, I'm happy with my Mayfair purchase instead of the Zman purchase.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
TonyKR
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
Avatar
But aren't those "booster packs" being sold 20 cards at a time (with 5 minis) for $20-25 per set?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joshua Watkins
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
Pugnax555 wrote:
But aren't those "booster packs" being sold 20 cards at a time (with 5 minis) for $20-25 per set?


There are cards that are being included with those mini packs, but they are independent from the A and B decks if I am not mistaken.

The "booster packs" for the remaining A deck cards will be available as a single purchase, and the remaining B deck cards will be available as a single purchase.

Again, I'm pretty sure this is how I read it, but could be mistaken.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hanno Girke
Germany
Schwabenheim an der Selz
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
patrocles wrote:
IT's true that a project was begun to rebalance the cards, but gamers don't seem to know exactly how this card set was chosen by Mayfair -


You can just stop reading there.
/rinse_and_repeat_mode_ON

Mayfair had nothing to do with any card selection.
Agricola is a Lookout game, and the new edition has been a combined effort of Mr. Uwe Rosenberg and the Lookout editor, Mr. Grzegorz Kobiela.

Mayfair is the license holder for the English language version. As there are several others in several other languages. None of them had any influence on the card selection.

Any licensee's action is to make sure the translations are correct. If you find any card with a wrong translation, blame Mayfair. If not, blame Lookout. Blame me, blame Uwe, blame Grzegorz. Or just use font size 4.
/rinse_and_repeat_mode_OFF

Poll
How often do I have to repeat this until the Mayfair haters stop starting fancy rumors?
Forever. Haters gotta hate.
Once a month. Forever.
Who are you?
Stop worrying. They are immune to common sense.
Don't tell them that Z-Man now works for Wizkids who do the miniatures.
      60 answers
Poll created by Hanno

14 
 Thumb up
5.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mattias Elfström
Sweden
Unspecified
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Agricola is one of the best games ever published.

I for one am not surprised that there is a reaction from fans when a loved game gets a new edition that is perceived to be "less" than what came before. This has happened before. If it turns out that the new edition grows past the earlier all will be well in time, if not, the criticism will persist.

I also think most of the criticism offered is with good intentions and should be taken to heart.

I will also take this opportunity to reiterate the need for Farmers of the Moor, both for the new edition and for the nice iOS version of Agricola (which is actually still in line with the first edition).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paris

Monforte de Lemos
LUGO
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hanno wrote:
patrocles wrote:
IT's true that a project was begun to rebalance the cards, but gamers don't seem to know exactly how this card set was chosen by Mayfair -


You can just stop reading there.
/rinse_and_repeat_mode_ON

Mayfair had nothing to do with any card selection.
Agricola is a Lookout game, and the new edition has been a combined effort of Mr. Uwe Rosenberg and the Lookout editor, Mr. Grzegorz Kobiela.

Mayfair is the license holder for the English language version. As there are several others in several other languages. None of them had any influence on the card selection.

Any licensee's action is to make sure the translations are correct. If you find any card with a wrong translation, blame Mayfair. If not, blame Lookout. Blame me, blame Uwe, blame Grzegorz. Or just use font size 4.
/rinse_and_repeat_mode_OFF

Poll
How often do I have to repeat this until the Mayfair haters stop starting fancy rumors?
Forever. Haters gotta hate.
Once a month. Forever.
Who are you?
Stop worrying. They are immune to common sense.
Don't tell them that Z-Man now works for Wizkids who do the miniatures.
      60 answers
Poll created by Hanno




Really? You're going to quibble about the fact that I said Mayfair instead of Lookout? Mayfair bought an owning share in Lookout. It's really not a big deal that I shorthanded with Mayfair. Certainly not big enough of a deal to create a really aggressive poll directed at a BGG user.

inoshishi wrote:
Many at Play-Agricola were a bit shocked to see the 98 card set that was chosen as the AB deck. We were in the process of playtesting, commenting and voting on all of the proposed cards for the deluxe edition (still are actually!), when suddenly it was announced which 98 of those cards were AB, regardless of our votes or balancing concerns. While some were well liked, others were not and called out for balancing issues. Caravan, for example, is the most egregious inclusion and few or none on Play-Agricola would call it a balanced card. Therefore, while these cards may have been playtested thoroughly by Lookout and Mayfair games, Play-Agricola wasn't involved in the playtesting of these cards at the time of their choosing.


This is the quote I was referring to incidentally.

I don't hate anyone Hanno. I just think it's terribly sad that the Z-Man version will eventually sell out and new buyers will be stuck with a starter kit.

where is the option in your poll that says I'm actually just right. You know I am. If Mayfair, or Lookout, whatever, had published a version with a full set of cards you would have knocked it out of the park. NO ONE would be dithering about buying the old Z-Man version. And no one would be making aggressive polls encouraging users to turn against other users hoping to distract them from the fluffed relaunch of Agricola.


Edit: Two posts into one for effeciency.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Blanchard
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
I Wonder If There's Beer On The Sun.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
RussRusnak wrote:
I’ve seen a few comments that seem to state that the Mayfair cards make feeding so easy that they actually seem to take away from the strategy involved in the game (dumb it down). I guess I’m curious to know if that is true.


I have pushed for an answer to this question a few times and no one ever gives me one. It's something that z-man fans say, but can't back up and clarify. The last time I asked it was pretty much evident that it's bogus. It seems to me like what they did is remove the cards that people would most often get in their hand and think "this isn't much use", which is fine with me. I'd rather consistently have a useful hand of good cards. Another commenter in this thread said that they did it with the intention of making drafting unnecessary, which I hadn't thought of before and is actually awesome. As a casual player who plays with other casual players, it often seemed like with everyone's insistence that drafting is necessary to have a good hand, my friends and I would never really be able to get the most out of our card play because we don't play the game enough to be able to effectively draft cards.

Pugnax555 wrote:
But aren't those "booster packs" being sold 20 cards at a time (with 5 minis) for $20-25 per set?


Those are an entirely separate project that was licensed to WizKids. The official booster packs have not been released yet. The Lookout people made it really clear that they didn't have anything to do with those minis & cards.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hanno Girke
Germany
Schwabenheim an der Selz
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
eNonsense wrote:

Those are an entirely separate project that was licensed to WizKids. The official booster packs have not been released yet. The Lookout people made it really clear that they didn't have anything to do with those minis & cards.


Semi-correct.
To help to get things clear:

(1) Lookout is going to release deck expansions containing 120 cards each, adding to the 48 from the base game and the 12 from the 5/6 player expansion for a total of 180 per deck. The first one is scheduled for this fall, codename "Artifex".

(2) Wizkids are publishing booster packs containing cards and minis. Those cards are taken from the C and D decks - some are popular evergreens currently out-of-print, others were picked to fit the booster packs' balance. As with all cards, Uwe and Grzegorz had the final say. The cards will be tournament legal, btw. They can be mixed and matched with all other cards.


4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paris

Monforte de Lemos
LUGO
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hanno wrote:


(2) Wizkids are publishing booster packs containing cards and minis. Those cards are taken from the C and D decks - some are popular evergreens currently out-of-print, others were picked to fit the booster packs' balance. As with all cards, Uwe and Grzegorz had the final say. The cards will be tournament legal, btw. They can be mixed and matched with all other cards.





Wait, so if you want the complete C and D decks then you have to buy those figurine kits!?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rich P
United Kingdom
Sheffield
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
I didn't know what to do with my UberBadge, so I left it as a GeekBadge.
badge
Planning...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
eNonsense wrote:
As a casual player who plays with other casual players, it often seemed like with everyone's insistence that drafting is necessary to have a good hand, my friends and I would never really be able to get the most out of our card play because we don't play the game enough to be able to effectively draft cards.


In almost 500 face-to-face games I've drafted less than a dozen times. I wouldn't worry about it being essential for a balanced game, that argument has been overstated.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Blanchard
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
I Wonder If There's Beer On The Sun.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the replies and clarifications. I appreciate it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I usually like art updates to a game, so Mayfair edition sounds tempting. But my 1st edition Agricola is full of pimped out goodness -- mostly from pieces bought straight from Lookout Games!

Does anyone have side-by-side comparisons of the 2 versions?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Rusnak
United States
Westchester
Illinois
flag msg tools
If I titled this thread wrong, I apologize. Maybe it should have been Agricola classic V Agricola revised. I neither hate nor like Mayfair, Lookout, or anyone else mentioned. I am curious about Hanno though, just how are you associated with (directly or indirectly) the people responsible for the revised edition? Also, if Mayfair does own Lookout and you were aware of that fact, your post was "misleading".

I started the discussion because I have heard enough talk and I was curious what was or wasn't true. Most of the talk I had heard was similar to what is here which seems to boil down to Zman produced the better (more complete) game however Mayfair/Lookout/Whoever else has prettier pieces and intends to offer enough add ons to eclipse the original (for what will be a significant increase in the price).

As a purely practical matter, everyone involved in the production/sale of Agricola is primarily interested in maximizing the amount of money they make. If the powers that be decide they can make more money by selling it piece meal; the base game, then the 5-6 payer expansion, then assorted sets of new cards, then fancy figurines, then mood music to play Agricola by that’s a business decision on their part. When you make a decision to do something like that, you have to understand that some people (including good customers) are going to be irritated by it, especially when you seem to be telling them you are phasing out the product they already spent money on.

As for me, our group only started playing the game 5-6 months ago. I enjoy it and I will most likely add a copy to my collection. I just wondered which was the better purchase while I still have a choice. My guess is there are enough copies of the Zman game out there that they will not go away. As for new decks of cards, since there are no significant rules changes in the revised edition, people who are interested should be able to buy new sets of cards as they see fit and use them with either edition. It seems as though the Zman version can be purchased for a known reasonable price while the revised edition will cost allot more just to get where Zman ended (less the pretty pieces). Taking a look at the Mayfair cards in one of the pictures on Boardgame Geek, I'm guessing everyone will have such a strong hand that it will change the flavor of the game in a negative way. I won't know know until I give it a chance.

I've never seen Farmers of the Moor, but if the games (classic & revised) are essentially the same why can't it be used with the new version?

Just logged on to Amazon and noticed the revised version is selling for 33 cents less than the out of print edition, it was kind of amusing.

I would like to thank everyone that took the time to reply here and encourage people to continue to do so if they have anything they believe is worth adding..

Russ
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Geoff Burkman
United States
Kettering
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Peekaboo!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
RussRusnak wrote:

I've never seen Farmers of the Moor, but if the games (classic & revised) are essentially the same why can't it be used with the new version?



It can. Quite easily.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paris

Monforte de Lemos
LUGO
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
RussRusnak wrote:
If I titled this thread wrong, I apologize. Maybe it should have been Agricola classic V Agricola revised. I neither hate nor like Mayfair, Lookout, or anyone else mentioned. I am curious about Hanno though, just how are you associated with (directly or indirectly) the people responsible for the revised edition? Also, if Mayfair does own Lookout and you were aware of that fact, your post was "misleading".

I started the discussion because I have heard enough talk and I was curious what was or wasn't true. Most of the talk I had heard was similar to what is here which seems to boil down to Zman produced the better (more complete) game however Mayfair/Lookout/Whoever else has prettier pieces and intends to offer enough add ons to eclipse the original (for what will be a significant increase in the price).

As a purely practical matter, everyone involved in the production/sale of Agricola is primarily interested in maximizing the amount of money they make. If the powers that be decide they can make more money by selling it piece meal; the base game, then the 5-6 payer expansion, then assorted sets of new cards, then fancy figurines, then mood music to play Agricola by that’s a business decision on their part. When you make a decision to do something like that, you have to understand that some people (including good customers) are going to be irritated by it, especially when you seem to be telling them you are phasing out the product they already spent money on.

As for me, our group only started playing the game 5-6 months ago. I enjoy it and I will most likely add a copy to my collection. I just wondered which was the better purchase while I still have a choice. My guess is there are enough copies of the Zman game out there that they will not go away. As for new decks of cards, since there are no significant rules changes in the revised edition, people who are interested should be able to buy new sets of cards as they see fit and use them with either edition. It seems as though the Zman version can be purchased for a known reasonable price while the revised edition will cost allot more just to get where Zman ended (less the pretty pieces). Taking a look at the Mayfair cards in one of the pictures on Boardgame Geek, I'm guessing everyone will have such a strong hand that it will change the flavor of the game in a negative way. I won't know know until I give it a chance.

I've never seen Farmers of the Moor, but if the games (classic & revised) are essentially the same why can't it be used with the new version?

Just logged on to Amazon and noticed the revised version is selling for 33 cents less than the out of print edition, it was kind of amusing.

I would like to thank everyone that took the time to reply here and encourage people to continue to do so if they have anything they believe is worth adding..

Russ



I don't hate anyone either - there are business strategies I dislike though and there are approaches to making and selling games that I prefer. It matters not a whit to me if Whizkids (makers of those figurine kits) own Z-MAN or not. The point isn't Z-MAN good Mayfair bad the point is the Z-Man version of Agricola was a complete game in a box and not a starter kit and the Whiz-Kids figurines (siphening off some cards from C and D deck into this collectible extra) is not at all how I want to see game companies treat gamers.

As I said before, if Mayfair, Lookout had published their new shiny version with the puzzle boards and everything with a full complement of cards NO ONE would even be considering for a second which version to buy right now. They would have knocked it out of the park. But instead they decided to convert a board game into a collectible starter kit.

And I really think Hanno's poll was beyond the pale. There's no need to bully BGG users for having perfectly reasonable opinions.

(He works for Lookout Russ)
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justin
United States
Creve Coeur
MO
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
patrocles wrote:
And I really think Hanno's poll was beyond the pale. There's no need to bully BGG users for having perfectly reasonable opinions.

(He works for Lookout Russ)

Eh? While it was snarky, whether or not Mayfair had anything to do with card selection is a matter of fact, not opinion, and it only paints a bigger target on Lookout.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.