Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
83 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 

Cthulhu Wars» Forums » Rules

Subject: beserkergang / regenerate interaction rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Tiago Gouveia
Brazil
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I dont recall this has ever been asked before. This situation came up on a pbf game (87 come and get it).

Great Cthulhu faction has a starspawn (with regenerate on), a shogot and a deep1. WW scored 3 kills against him and loose to gnops (with bersekergang). WW is the attacker. "Howl" to solve this?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron K
United States
Phoenix
Arizona
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My thought was that an elimination trumps the pain/kill system and that the elimination removes the starspawn in all scenarios of applying results of this combat. (Three units and two kills/two eliminations with one unit as a starspawn.

For instance:
Starspawn - kill/kill
Shoggoth - pain (elimination)
Deep one - pain (elimination)

Starspawn - kill/pain (elimination)
Shoggoth - pain (elimination)
Deep one - kill
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Starks
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Talae is 100% right. Even if all 4 results were Kills (and remember, Eliminations trump Kills), all GC units would still die.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Hobbit
Greece
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmb
If there were 4 Kills, all would die, but if the Starspawn gets one Kill assigned first he can only be Killed with a second Kill and you can´t assign an Elimination on an already Killed Unit (otherwise Eternal would be absolut useless).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Starks
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Starspawn is only Killed if 2 Kills are assigned. Otherwise, he's a valid target for additional effects (e.g. Necrophagy Pain).

It has nothing to do with Eternal, since that's a GOO ability, and Berserkgang can only be used on Cultists and Monsters. The only Battle Elimination that can target GOOs is the "Surrounded Pained Unit" one, but in that case Rhan can just cancel his Pain to disqualify himself.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Hobbit
Greece
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmb
Kills and Eliminations are applied at the same time, the SS already has a Kill, so no Elimination can be applied to him (you can´t stack them, just because you know he can use Regenerate).

Looking at The Ancients, if Rhan got assigned a Kill, he can´t be Eliminated at the same time.

P.38 wrote:
Post-Battle abilities can also add a third type of result: an Elimination. If a Post-Battle ability adds an Elimination, it must be assigned at that point (alongside the Kills). As with Kills, excess Eliminations are ignored.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kolby Reddish
United States
Nampa
Idaho
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You can definitely assign the elimination to him. That line that says ignore them is just assuming that all "killed" units will die.

Alex just think of it logically. Why would rolling less kills (two in this case) result in the Starspawn dying to the elimination while rolling three would not. I see no rule that says eliminations can't be applied to already "killed" units. It just generally doesn't apply.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Hobbit
Greece
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmb
reddish22 wrote:
Why would rolling less kills (two in this case) result in the Starspawn dying to the elimination while rolling three would not. I see no rule that says eliminations can't be applied to already "killed" units. It just generally doesn't apply.


Because it wouldn´t, as long as GC applies 1 Kill to the SS. With the Omega RB all Kills and Eliminations are applied at the same time first, then Pains, then Units get removed, then moved because of Pains. The Excess is not stored, otherwise Cthuga would get 1P/ES per Kill rolled.
3 Units, 3 Kills/Eliminations assigned, rest discarded.
That´s how the rules are written (now).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Graham Robinson
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
badge
In memory of Tara, my beloved Wolfhound-Deerhound cross. Flew away Feb 2016, still missed.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Let's look at the actual wording:

Quote:
Regenerate (Post-Battle)

Apply up to 2 Battle results to the same Starspawn when taking losses. If 2 Kills are applied, the Starspawn is Killed. On any other combination of Kill or Pain results, the Starspawn is only Pained.


Quote:
Berserkergang (Post-Battle)

For each Gnoph-Keh Killed in Battle, the enemy must Eliminate one Monster or Cultist.


Note that Regenerate doesn't mention Eliminate, and that the Eliminate in Beserkergang is not a Battle result.

The Starspawn is toast.

Also worth noting that Eternal also provides no protection from Eliminations, only Pains and Kills.

Cheers,
Graham
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Graham Robinson
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
badge
In memory of Tara, my beloved Wolfhound-Deerhound cross. Flew away Feb 2016, still missed.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Or another way to work it through:

GC assigns one kill to each unit, evoking the Regenerate power to allow him to assign two results to his Starspawn. As per the spellbook, the Starspawn now counts as "Pained".

WW assigns a Kill to his Gnoph-Keh, and evokes Beserkergang.

GC now has to assign the Eliminate to one of his units. Since the Shoggoth and Deep One are both already Killed, this has to be the Starspawn.

GC has no units to take any Pain results.

Cheers,
Graham
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Hobbit
Greece
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmb
therealbuserian wrote:
Or another way to work it through:

GC assigns one kill to each unit, evoking the Regenerate power to allow him to assign two results to his Starspawn. As per the spellbook, the Starspawn now counts as "Pained".

WW assigns a Kill to his Gnoph-Keh, and evokes Beserkergang.

GC now has to assign the Eliminate to one of his units. Since the Shoggoth and Deep One are both already Killed, this has to be the Starspawn.

GC has no units to take any Pain results.

Cheers,
Graham


Did you read the section about Post-Battle in the Omega Rulebook? So to stop any further speculations, here in full glory:
P.38 again wrote:

After totaling the Battle results for each side, players must assign the results the enemy rolled to their own Units. First, assign only the rolled Kill (6) results, but not the Pain results (4 or 5). Kills are always assigned first. (Kill SS and DO) If there are Kills rolled in excess of the Units, ignore them. When assigning the Kill results, players may choose to use any Post-Battle abilities they have available. Post-Battle abilities typically add to, subtract from, or in some way modify the Battle results or how they are assigned (Berserkergang adds 2 Eliminations). Post-Battle abilities can also add a third type of result(Battle-Result): an Elimination. If a Post-Battle ability adds an Elimination, it must be assigned at that point (alongside the Kills). As with Kills, excess Eliminations are ignored(that takes the Shoggoth out and even if it would be possible to assign an Extermination on a Killed Unit; Exterminate the DO, because it´s still the choice of the owner).
Post-Battle abilities are unlike Pre-Battle abilities in that if they add or assign a Kill, Elimination or otherwise remove a Unit from the Battle, they do not prevent that Unit from using its own Post-Battle abilities. In other words, both sides may always use all Post-Battle abilities they have available during this segment.
There are a few Post-Battle abilities that can be used even when you are not involved in the Battle (in which case it always declares this on the text of the ability). This is the only way a Faction not directly involved in a Battle can participate. A key example is Black Goat’s Necrophagy Spellbook which reads that you can use it even when you are not involved in the Battle.
After assigning all Kills and Eliminations, it is time to assign the Pains (rolls of 4 or 5) to your Units. As with Kills and Eliminations, if there are excess Pains rolled, ignore them. In the next and final segment of Battle, Kills will remove a Unit from play, and Pains will force them to retreat to adjacent Areas.
Post-Battle abilities that modify Pains may be appropriate to use when assigning Pains, rather than (or in addition to) when assigning Kills. For example, Windwalker’s Eternal ability could be used at this point, rather than when assigning Kills (Activate Regenerate and reduce the effect to just being Pained). Also, Crawling Chaos’ Harbinger can be activated both when a Kill and a Pain is assigned. Also, Yellow Sign’s Vengeance is used when assigning Kills, Eliminations, AND Pains. In either case, all Kills and Eliminations must always be assigned before any Pains are. Importantly, once a Post-Battle ability has been triggered (whether during the assigning of Kills OR the assigning of Pains), its effect takes place, no matter what happens to the Unit which has the ability—whether that Unit is also or later Killed, Eliminated, etc. In other words, Post-Battle abilities do not retroactively prevent other Post-Battle abilities from having taken place, even though they may modify the assigning of Battle results due to already used Post-Battle abilities. (see the Battle Examples on page 40 for how some Post-Battle abilities may interact in this way). Note that many Post-Battle abilities are triggered by Kills or Pains. These are specific results, meaning that if an Elimination occurs, it would not target that ability. For example, Windwalker’s Cannibalism requires an enemy Unit to be Killed, not Eliminated (such as via Devour, Abduct, etc.). Sleeper’s Demand Sacrifice does not protect against Eliminations, only actual Kills, etc.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron K
United States
Phoenix
Arizona
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I am still not clear on things based on that passage. That definitely clarifies things like eternal and harbinger, but not regenerate for me. The are parts that I could bold to emphasize my understanding of things. I would like to hear a Petersen voice on this one.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Niko
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
[This space is intentionally left empty]
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Here's my understanding of the situation: All kills and eliminations need to be assigned first. There is no way not to assign the starspawn two kills, or two eliminates, or one kill and one eliminate.

While the wording of Regenerate doesn't include Eliminate (probably because at the time it was written eliminates were not considered battle results) it seems very strange to insist that eliminates are battle results (as per Omega rules) but Regenerates "Apply up to 2 battle results" doesn't include the possibility to assign any of the combinations above.

So what happens if a starspawn gets assigned at least one eliminate? Is there really an argument that a starspawn that gets assigned at least one eliminate is not eliminated?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Starks
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Regeneration does not call out Elimination, but only specifically provides immunity to a single Kill result. The implication there is that only 1 Elimination is required to remove a Star Spawn from play.

Note also that Eliminations can apparently count as Battle Results. Thus, even if already assigned a Kill, a Star Spawn can clearly be assigned an Elimination. Combined with the above, that clearly means the Star Spawn in this situation must be removed from play.

However, this raises an interesting question: can a Star Spawn receive 2 Eliminations, since they are both battle results? I would assume the answer is no, but it'd be worth getting that clarified by someone official.

Also, while sidestepping RAI vs RAW, this debate is a little ridiculous

An Elimination is stronger than a Kill, it pierces many protections against the latter. The idea of the wounded Star Spawn laying there, going "Wait wait, you can't kill me, I already got super hurt!" and the dieing Gnoph-Keh being like "Aw shucks, I guess that's technically right... raargh" is funny. Imagine a scenario where it's just the Star Spawn vs the Gnoph-Keh:
A) Star Spawn rolls 1 Kill, Gnoph-Keh rolls 0, Berserkergang is triggered, Star Spawn dies
B) Star Spawn rolls 1 Kill, Gnoph-Keh rolls 1, Berserkergang is triggered, Star Spawn... lives?

B is clearly ridiculous
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Hobbit
Greece
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmb
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
So what happens if a starspawn gets assigned at least one eliminate? Is there really an argument that a starspawn that gets assigned at least one eliminate is not eliminated?


The SS would be removed, but it´s still job of the owner to assign the results (unless you are fighting H****r), so why should he?

Unless the SS uses Regenerate he can not be assigned more then one result (Kill or Pain), simple. And there is no rule that forces you to maximize your losses, just look at the example on P.43
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Starks
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If the SS does not use Regenerate, then a single Kill is enough to remove it from play.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Graham Robinson
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
badge
In memory of Tara, my beloved Wolfhound-Deerhound cross. Flew away Feb 2016, still missed.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Alex, you're not reading this correctly. A StarSpawn either uses Regenerate when you START assigning results to it (in which case it isn't Killed but Pained by the first Kill, so can take the Eliminate result) or the owner chooses not to use it at all (in which case the first Kill Kills it anyway.

In either case, the Starspawn is GONE.

Your reading makes no more sense than WW rolling 4 Kills, so GC assigns one to each unit, and ignores the fourth. Then he moves to the "assign Pain" bit, and uses Regenerate...

Cheers,
Graham
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lincoln Petersen
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
POIJPOIJSDF:LKFDSL:KJSDF:LFDSJDLS:K
1 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Arthur Petersen
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
it's your sister Cheryl!
badge
I work for Petersen Games. AMA
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, Eliminates *are* Battle results, but otherwise Link is correct; the revised Regenerate makes this more clear:




You can only apply 2 KILL OR PAIN results, not Eliminates. So, only 1 Eliminate can be applied to a Star Spawn.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Starks
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If that's the case, should Eliminations be called out as being assigned before Kills, instead of at the same time?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Niko
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
[This space is intentionally left empty]
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
AdamStarks wrote:
If the SS does not use Regenerate, then a single Kill is enough to remove it from play.
Agreed, though I can see where Alex point of view comes from: The rule section he quoted calls out using regenerate when assigning pains. This doesn't make much sense since, as has been pointed out, regenerate needs to be activated when assigning kills to the starspawn or else the first is enough to kill it. The only reason to activate regenerate when assigning pains is to assign the starspawn two pains so that another unit doesn't have to be assigned one.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Hobbit
Greece
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmb
AdamStarks wrote:
If the SS does not use Regenerate, then a single Kill is enough to remove it from play.


Yes, but if you use it while assigning Pains (like written in the rules), a Kill + a Pain (or nothing) becomes Pained and you still can not assign an Elimination on an already Killed Unit.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Hobbs
United States
Wylie
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Alex,
So if we ignore the elimination part of the conversation, are you saying that by your interpretation of the rule is this?

A single starspawn fights against the combined might of another faction. The other faction ends up rolling 8 kills and 12 pains. Now you assign kills and the starspawn gets 1 and since there are no more units the others are ignored. Now you activate regeneration and assign him one of the pains and he survives to run away and fight another day.

Regardless of how the rule in the book can be interpreted, I do not believe this is the intent of regeneration. It should not make the starspawn unable to be killed, but just allow him to soak up another kill to protect his army.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Niko
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
[This space is intentionally left empty]
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Alcex wrote:
AdamStarks wrote:
If the SS does not use Regenerate, then a single Kill is enough to remove it from play.


Yes, but if you use it while assigning Pains (like written in the rules), a Kill + a Pain (or nothing) becomes Pained and you still can not assign an Elimination on an already Killed Unit.
See my post just before yours. There are two times when regenerate can be activated: when assigning kills and when assigning pains. You need to activate it when assigning kills to prevent the starspawn from being taken out by that kill.
Why the rulebook chose to use the second, less useful, case as an example I don't know, but it doesn't mean that that's the only time to activate regenerate.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Hobbit
Greece
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmb
jchobbs wrote:
Alex,
So if we ignore the elimination part of the conversation, are you saying that by your interpretation of the rule is this?

A single starspawn fights against the combined might of another faction. The other faction ends up rolling 8 kills and 12 pains. Now you assign kills and the starspawn gets 1 and since there are no more units the others are ignored. Now you activate regeneration and assign him one of the pains and he survives to run away and fight another day.

Regardless of how the rule in the book can be interpreted, I do not believe this is the intent of regeneration. It should not make the starspawn unable to be killed, but just allow him to soak up another kill to protect his army.


In your case the SS would of course die, i´m saying you can not assign an Elimination on a Unit with a Kill, just because the Kill won´t Kill it.
And that´s what regeneration is about, you cut off the trolls head and think the f***er is dead. Surprise, he grows another head with an even more ugly face and you have to fight him again.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.