Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
22 Posts

Up Front» Forums » Rules

Subject: Doubling LMG Firepower with Hero cards rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Chris Colapietro
United States
Endicott
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I tried searching the threads and three(!) versions of the rules, but cannot come to a good conclusion on this - what is the correct procedure for doubling the firepower of a crewed weapon with bracketed firepower (such as an LMG) with a Hero card?

The rules (orig rules: 10.45) seem to state that you always double the bracketed firepower value, but this makes no sense to me as the bracketed firepower is 1/2 the normal rounded up or down depending on the weapon. Thus, playing a hero on a fully-crewed weapon team will at best add a single firepower and at worst reduce it by 1 depending on how the values were rounded.

Rule 10.45 also states that if the FP for a soldier is already doubled, you triple the FP - so is a fully-crewed weapon considered 'already doubled' and you add the bracketed FP to the full FP to get the final value?

Ex: MG-34

Rng FP Hero FP 'Tripled'
0 8[4] 8 12
1 9[5] 10 14
2 10[5] 10 15
3 11[6] 12 17
4 12[6] 12 18
5 13[7] 14 20


Using the 'triple' column makes the use of the hero card worthwhile for the MG-34 and seems to make the most sense, but I have not found a version of the rule book that I would interpret that way. According to rule 10.45, the British Vickers Mark 1 actually drops in firepower at ranges 0, 2 and 4 through the use of a Hero card and that can't be right.

I just started playing Up Front over the past 2 weeks, so any input from you long time veterans would be appreciated.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan Felsher
United States
Rancho Palos Verdes
CA
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
If the group is flanking (and therefore enjoying double firepower), playing a hero card on the LMG, I would play that you get to add the bracketed firepower of the LMG to the group.

I'm not sure what other situation would cause the LMG to already have doubled firepower, other than playing 2 hero cards on it (which I've never seen happen)....but if this did happen, I would just take the bracketed value and triple it....so in your case at range 1, the tripled LMG would have 15 FP.

I hope that's correct. Richard?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Colapietro
United States
Endicott
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Just to be clear, I'm not asking what happens when you play a hero card on an already doubled LMG (although I am interested in that answer as well), but rather if a Hero card really only doubles the bracketed FP of an LMG, thus making Heroes relatively useless on LMGs (or detrimental in the case of the Vickers).

In my example the 'Triple' column is simply the un-bracketed FP plus the bracketed. I suppose '1 1/2' would be a better name than tripled, but I was treating the un-bracketed FP as already doubled.

So - short question is: Is the 'Hero FP' column in my example the correct FP of the MG-34 when doubled by a Hero card? If so why?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan Felsher
United States
Rancho Palos Verdes
CA
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Oh. Okay. Yes, your doubled values are correct because the hero card doubles the bracketed value. I don't believe that your tripled values are correct. I would triple the bracketed value if two hero cards were played on the LMG.

If it helps, picture a Hero as some soldier strapping on his balls and getting a great shot by maneuvering at that moment to get a better shot. Perhaps he goes off on his own to flank the enemy. A crew is less likely to be able to pull something like that off....hence the BRACKETED value gets doubled. The main reason you'd play a hero on an LMG is if you were using it to Rally him. Otherwise, it's better on non-crewed weapons for this reason.

There's times when a hero card is the least useful card in my hand and it gets discarded.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Szarka
Canada
Waterloo
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
When it is your turn to send a VASSAL move, the wait is excruciating. When it's my turn, well, I've been busy.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Doubling the firepower of an LMG would simply be too powerful in game terms. Bryan's rationalization is also fine...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fernando Robert Yu
Philippines
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mcszarka wrote:
Doubling the firepower of an LMG would simply be too powerful in game terms. Bryan's rationalization is also fine...


Agree. The machine gunner maybe be heroic but his assistant crewman is not, hence you only use the bracketed FP.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Randy Mauldin
United States
Texarkana
Arkansas
flag msg tools
mbmb
I think the original intent was for the Americans. Since their "LMG" is a BAR, and not belt fed, it can really benefit from playing of the Hero card.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Irving
United States
Salinas
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I see I was being paged here

LMG/MMG's and Hero cards are kind of kluge of different rules, that can get confusing:
- Crewable LMG's (G, R) and MMG's double the bracketed firepower per 10.45. (Even the weapon is not fully crewed (pinned or no crewman--note most players in this situation use the Hero to rally the crewman in this case, so weapon far less likely to malfunction--usually the same amount of FP, but unbracketed malf numbers.)
- Noncrewable LMG's (B, J, F, I) double their firepower only with Hero card with a BLACK RNC printed on it (i.e. Card #30, YES; Card #151, NO) per 44.9 & 50.6.
- BAR's (A) are not considered LMG's, so they double firepower on either Hero card.
- AFV's: Rule 28.421 states Hero card cannot be use to improve To Hit numbers or Firepower of AFV's.

The errata confirms that interpretation:

Quote:
44.9 This rule states that the British and (via exception) Japanese non-crew served LMGs can only double its firepower with the black RNC Hero card, thus implying that the American BAR can use either Hero card. Specifically "This rule cannot be used for other nationalities (EXC: Japanese)." However, rule 50.6 (DESERT WAR) states "Like all LMGs in the game which are not considered a crew-served weapon, a Hero card can be used to double the LMG's firepower only if the Hero card is also a black RNC." Which rule is correct (as they contradict each other), and how is the BAR handled?
A. Both are; nor do they contradict. The BAR is not considered to be an LMG. Either hero card may be used to double its firepower.
CLARIFICATION:
The American BAR may use both Hero cards, and is not considered an LMG.
The British, French, Italian & Japanese LMG ‘s may only use the Black Hero card.
The German & Russian LMG’s may use both Hero cards, but doubles its bracketed value.




A realism argument can be made that if a Hero card played to double firepower of a man, the man is maneuvering within his general area (Remember: The size of UF space is roughly the size of a football field) to get a better shot. A weapon team wouldn't be mobile enough to take advantage such an advantage. A weapon wielded by a single man could.

The real reason is more likely that AH thought doubling the unbracketed firepower of a machine gun was just too powerful when they were designing Up Front. When Banzai came out, they now had noncrewable LMG's so the Black Hero rule was put in as a compromise.

Also a weapon eligible for tripled FP: Flank/Encircle/infiltration + Hero, triple whatever firepower it was eligible to double (i.e. bracketed if it were a crewable LMG) (Both Heros cannot be played on a single man to triple FP.

7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Colapietro
United States
Endicott
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
OK, perhaps I am not explaining this clearly enough - let me try one more way. I understand that an outright doubling of the FP of fully-crewed weapons by a Hero card could be considered too powerful, and thus that is why there is an exception in rule 10.45 to handle this case.

For reference (relevant sentence underlined):
Quote:
10.45 FIREPOWER: A Hero card can be used to double the firepower of any one man for one player turn. If the man is already entitled to double firepower, triple it instead. The firepower factor of a machinegunner which is doubled (or tripled) is his bracketed firepower - even if the gun is fully crewed. Mortars, AFV's... etc.


So, since an exception was added to 10.45 to specifically handle the case of Hero cards on fully-crewed MGs (for non-fully crewed MGs, the sentence does not change anything), one must assume that there is a purpose to the exception. If we look at the example of the Hero card applied to the fully-crewed British Vickers, playing a Hero card on the fully-crewed Vickers is actually detrimental at relative ranges 0, 2 and 4 and has no effect at ranges 1, 3 and 5.


Vickers Mark I MMG:
Rng FP Hero FP
0 7[3] 6
1 8[4] 8
2 9[4] 8
3 10[5] 10
4 11[5] 10
5 12[6] 12


If the above results were the intent of the exception in rule 10.45, then it would have been more reasonable to simply make an exception that Hero cards cannot be played on fully-crewed MGs to increase their firepower at all.

So, this brings me to my original point - is the intent of the exception in rule 10.45 that the bracketed FP should be ADDED to the FP of a crewed weapon (which may be considered already doubled) in the same manner that re-doubling FP numbers for non-crewed weapons is handled by adding the base FP to the already doubled value - (i.e. tripling it). This is effectively 1 1/2 times the fully-crewed FP, or triple the un-crewed (bracketed) FP.

If the above interpretation is not correct, what possible reason is there for providing the exception for MGs in 10.45 rather than simply excluding fully-crewed MGs from FP increases via Hero card?


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rich James
United States
Plano
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The3Furies wrote:
So, this brings me to my original point - is the intent of the exception in rule 10.45 that the bracketed FP should be ADDED to the FP of a crewed weapon (which may be considered already doubled) in the same manner that re-doubling FP numbers for non-crewed weapons is handled by adding the base FP to the already doubled value - (i.e. tripling it). This is effectively 1 1/2 times the fully-crewed FP, or triple the un-crewed (bracketed) FP.

No, the intent is to double the bracketed firepower.

Quote:
If the above interpretation is not correct, what possible reason is there for providing the exception for MGs in 10.45 rather than simply excluding fully-crewed MGs from FP increases via Hero card?

I don't have much to add to what was already offered up thread on this point. The exception was likely added to keep the Hero card from being too powerful when used on a crewed machinegun.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Irving
United States
Salinas
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The3Furies wrote:
OK, perhaps I am not explaining this clearly enough - let me try one more way. I understand that an outright doubling of the FP of fully-crewed weapons by a Hero card could be considered too powerful, and thus that is why there is an exception in rule 10.45 to handle this case.


I don't think the responders (including I) are misunderstanding you. You simply don't like the answer.

Quote:
For reference (relevant sentence underlined):
Quote:
10.45 FIREPOWER: A Hero card can be used to double the firepower of any one man for one player turn. If the man is already entitled to double firepower, triple it instead. The firepower factor of a machinegunner which is doubled (or tripled) is his bracketed firepower - even if the gun is fully crewed. Mortars, AFV's... etc.


So, since an exception was added to 10.45 to specifically handle the case of Hero cards on fully-crewed MGs (for non-fully crewed MGs, the sentence does not change anything), one must assume that there is a purpose to the exception. If we look at the example of the Hero card applied to the fully-crewed British Vickers, playing a Hero card on the fully-crewed Vickers is actually detrimental at relative ranges 0, 2 and 4 and has no effect at ranges 1, 3 and 5.


Vickers Mark I MMG:
Rng FP Hero FP
0 7[3] 6
1 8[4] 8
2 9[4] 8
3 10[5] 10
4 11[5] 10
5 12[6] 12


If the above results were the intent of the exception in rule 10.45, then it would have been more reasonable to simply make an exception that Hero cards cannot be played on fully-crewed MGs to increase their firepower at all.


A few things wrong here:
- The exception applies to ALL crew served LMG's/MMG's, whether fully crewed or not, the Hero can be used to double the bracketed firepower at that range for one turn.
- Note Rule 10.45 says a Hero card can be used I.e. Optional. You do not have to double the firepower of this weapon if it is to your disadvantage, even if used the Hero to rally this man.
- Note: This doesn't come up often because (as you say) it doesn't help you and may very well be able to use the Hero card on another man in the group for similar (sometimes better) effect. Unless you need extra firepower to activate Fire card(s), the Hero isn't used--there's no advantage to having more firepower than you need.


Quote:
So, this brings me to my original point - is the intent of the exception in rule 10.45 that the bracketed FP should be ADDED to the FP of a crewed weapon (which may be considered already doubled) in the same manner that re-doubling FP numbers for non-crewed weapons is handled by adding the base FP to the already doubled value - (i.e. tripling it). This is effectively 1 1/2 times the fully-crewed FP, or triple the un-crewed (bracketed) FP.

If the above interpretation is not correct, what possible reason is there for providing the exception for MGs in 10.45 rather than simply excluding fully-crewed MGs from FP increases via Hero card?



So your argument is:
- Because AH COULD have written the rule a different way and still have the same effect. (Not technically true (Sometimes a Hero on a LG nets an additional FP), but we'll go with it.)
- I assume they MUST have had a reason, so therefore my interpretation must be correct.

Don't expect too many people to agree with you. This has been hashed out for 34 years now.

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Colapietro
United States
Endicott
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks to all who took the time to reply.

rri1 wrote:
I don't think the responders (including I) are misunderstanding you. You simply don't like the answer.


I certainly never claimed my interpretation was correct - I just started playing so I was simply looking for clarification on a rule that did not make sense to me. My gut feel was that I must be interpreting it wrong, but that does not seem to be the case.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fernando Robert Yu
Philippines
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The3Furies wrote:
Thanks to all who took the time to reply.

rri1 wrote:
I don't think the responders (including I) are misunderstanding you. You simply don't like the answer.


I certainly never claimed my interpretation was correct - I just started playing so I was simply looking for clarification on a rule that did not make sense to me. My gut feel was that I must be interpreting it wrong, but that does not seem to be the case.


Again, not liking the answer. Live with it bro.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Irving
United States
Salinas
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The3Furies wrote:
Thanks to all who took the time to reply.

rri1 wrote:
I don't think the responders (including I) are misunderstanding you. You simply don't like the answer.


I certainly never claimed my interpretation was correct - I just started playing so I was simply looking for clarification on a rule that did not make sense to me. My gut feel was that I must be interpreting it wrong, but that does not seem to be the case.


Up Front's rules are notably opaque and confusing on many points. There's no problem not understanding them and/or having a complete misinterpretation. Asking questions is expected for every player.

But after several people answer your question with basically the same response, arguing that can't be right seems self defeating.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Colapietro
United States
Endicott
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wow... let it go... I'm not arguing that I am right - never was. I was simply looking for a ruling and a rational for the rule from those who have more experience with this game than I do, and against all odds hoping for a polite discussion.

I'm truly sorry I dared to ask a question - and God forbid offer an opinion - on this forum.

That said, thank-you again to all who answered.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hawkeye
United States
Astoria
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The3Furies wrote:
... thank-you again to all who answered.


And since I never realized you could only use the Black RNC Hero card with a light machine gun, I'm glad you asked the question. As they say on South Park, "I learned something today ..."
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan Felsher
United States
Rancho Palos Verdes
CA
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Here's a summary I put together regarding Hero cards. I hope it is all correct.

* Can be played anytime without counting as an action. If played on opponent's turn do not replace until owner's player turn.
* Rally 1 PC anytime (not an action) AND/OR PC may: 2X FP (3X FP if already 2X) during a Fire attack. ([FP] for crew weapons) or +1 THF.
* Suspend wounds for a turn (including canceling Endurance check)
* Previously wounded men who get another wound = KIA unless Hero card played immediately.
* Hero cannot be used in same turn to gain AMBUSH effects.
* All LMG's which are not considered crew-served FP are doubled only with a bRNC Hero.
* Previously wounded men who get another wound = KIA unless Hero card played immediately.
* Hero card may be played to cancel the Wound Endurance check or cancel adverse wound effects for one turn.
* Hero card may be played allowing immediate retry Morale Check.
* ATMM: Unpinned defender being OVR if AFV draws rRNC and fails to pin defending PC (hero may be played immediately to unpin a PC).
* AFV: May be used as a Rally One on Pinned or Stunned AFV. 2. May be played just prior to an AFV flipping over to avoid pinning/buttoning up provided Commander Killed penalties do not apply. 3. May be played on a Buttoned Up AFV which is neither stunned nor Commander Killed to flip back to CE side.
* OVR: May be played immediately prior to OVR to Rally a pinned man and ALSO qualify a red 4, red 5, or red 6 RNC for immobilization or Elimination of OT AFV, or red 5 or red 6 for immobilization of other AFV's.
* CC vs AFV: Attacker is heroic +1.
* AFV Damage: Buttoned Up: Remains Buttoned Up the rest of the game unless a Hero card is played. Pinned: OT AFV and IG only. Requires Rally 3, though lesser Rally and Hero Cards may be played for partial credit.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan Felsher
United States
Rancho Palos Verdes
CA
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Also, just to clarify again (if it hasn't already been stated), in Up Front, a BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle) is NOT considered an LMG. It does NOT require a black hero card to double. This is from the official errata.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Irving
United States
Salinas
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
truep wrote:
Here's a summary I put together regarding Hero cards. I hope it is all correct.

* Can be played anytime without counting as an action. If played on opponent's turn do not replace until owner's player turn.
* Rally 1 PC anytime (not an action) AND/OR PC may: 2X FP (3X FP if already 2X) during a Fire attack. ([FP] for crew weapons) or +1 THF.

+1 THF does not apply to mortars, AFV's or IG's.

Quote:

* Suspend wounds for a turn (including canceling Endurance check)
* Previously wounded men who get another wound = KIA unless Hero card played immediately.
* Hero cannot be used in same turn to gain AMBUSH effects.

Not quite. What it says you cannot use Hero to rally the only unpinned men in a group "after declaring the attack and before its resolution does not make that attack subject to ambush rules, but subsequent attack may be." What that indicates is you can use a Hero to rally the only unpinned men, then commence the attack (Which you'd probably do anyway, ambush or not!) which you could also play a concealment card to ambush.

Quote:
* All LMG's which are not considered crew-served FP are doubled only with a bRNC Hero.
* Previously wounded men who get another wound = KIA unless Hero card played immediately.
* Hero card may be played to cancel the Wound Endurance check or cancel adverse wound effects for one turn.


You had these 2 earlier.


Quote:
* Hero card may be played allowing immediate retry Morale Check.
* ATMM: Unpinned defender being OVR if AFV draws rRNC and fails to pin defending PC (hero may be played immediately to unpin a PC).

Actually a Hero card can unpin a pinned man with a ATMM (even if was immediately pinned on the overrun attack), in order to attempt using the ATMM, if the RNC drawn for the overrrun attack on that man was red.


Or to make more clear, on an overrun attack, if a RED RNC card drawn to resolve the attack on an unpinned man with an ATMM, the ATMM attack can happen. The Hero card unpins a pinned man--even one who just pinned to commence an ATMM the attack.

Whew!

Quote:
* AFV: May be used as a Rally One on Pinned or Stunned AFV. 2. May be played just prior to an AFV flipping over to avoid pinning/buttoning up provided Commander Killed penalties do not apply. 3. May be played on a Buttoned Up AFV which is neither stunned nor Commander Killed to flip back to CE side.
* OVR: May be played immediately prior to OVR to Rally a pinned man and ALSO qualify a red 4, red 5, or red 6 RNC for immobilization or Elimination of OT AFV, or red 5 or red 6 for immobilization of other AFV's.

Playing a Hero card on a man during an overrun attack reduced the attack RNC by 1. (10.44)

Quote:
* CC vs AFV: Attacker is heroic +1.
* AFV Damage: Buttoned Up: Remains Buttoned Up the rest of the game unless a Hero card is played. Pinned: OT AFV and IG only. Requires Rally 3, though lesser Rally and Hero Cards may be played for partial credit.

Buttoned up rule already covered.

A Hero cannot be used to increase the firepower or To hit frequency of an AFV or IG.

Campaign Game: +3 Elan Points.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Irving
United States
Salinas
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
truep wrote:
Also, just to clarify again (if it hasn't already been stated), in Up Front, a BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle) is NOT considered an LMG. It does NOT require a black hero card to double. This is from the official errata.


Correct.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan Felsher
United States
Rancho Palos Verdes
CA
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Thanks Richard.

I will remove the repetitions.

I see that I need to add some exceptions and clarifications...and I should probably take out completely about the ATMM since I think it just adds confusion. It's really the red RNC that affects the ATMM use. The hero just unpins a man which is a standard power of the hero card. Same thing with partial credit towards rallying AFV's, thought I think it's important to note that a Hero card is the only way to unbutton an AFV.

I like your wording re: Hero cards during an overrun attack. Much clearer and fewer words (which is the goal!)

I need to figure out simple way to describe hero cards related to Ambush effects. I might just leave it out completely. If my Partisan opponent accidentally declared an attack before playing the hero (Tsk...tsk...for shame!), I'd let him just take it back and do it in the proper order so he could play a concealed card. This is a good example of a rule I would ignore....
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Edward Kendrick
United Kingdom
Redditch
Worcestershire
flag msg tools
I think the OP was struggling to see why there would be a rule saying that a Hero card doubled the bracketed FP of a crewed MG, when this could actually be worse than the normal crewed FP.

The case where you might do this would be if the MG operator was pinned and you used the Hero card to rally him, then fired the group in the same turn. It would make perfect sense to do this, and the rule clarifies what happens if you do.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.