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Subject: SUSD Review rss

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Jesse
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I scanned the boards and haven't seen anyone having posted this. I was expecting people to be shi**ing the bed about the review around here. I just watched the video and thought he had the perfect take on the game. His feelings have exactly been mine. He perfectly captured the Kickstarter crowd too. Love these guys.

What are your thoughts on their review?


https://youtu.be/Gbakt8dfV9w
 
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Timmi T.
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You scanned the wrong boards though:
>link<

I still don't get, why in a review of a Board Game we have to denounce people who don't always buy their games via traditional retail channel???
When he opens with "how many components the game has and that they are all too different and unnescessary and such" its really authentic to watch the A Feast of for Odin review right afterwards.
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Joshua Ryan
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Yeah, I love SUSD, but that review really missed the mark, focusing way too much energy on such benign complaints. And based on previous reviews, it made no sense:

Caverna, Feast for Odin, etc. - "Look at all this stuff! I love all these bits and bobs, I just can't stop looking at them!"

Scythe - "Whhhhyy is there so much stuff?? This is completely unnecessary, even for a Kickstarter.. what a slog."

shake
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Y P
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Stannis the King wrote:
You scanned the wrong boards though:
>link<

I still don't get, why in a review of a Board Game we have to denounce people who don't always buy their games via traditional retail channel???
When he opens with "how many components the game has and that they are all too different and unnescessary and such" its really authentic to watch the A Feast of for Odin review right afterwards.


I think the component count complaint isn't meant to be taken in isolation, but rather a high component count of great quality is a positive when used in a great game but merely a distraction when married to a mediocre or even merely good game. I don't consider those 2 reviews contradictory.
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J Kaemmer
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Stannis the King wrote:
watch the A Feast of for Odin review right afterwards.


Right? Oh Scythe has too many bits and it slow and plodding and it has too many things going on... but in a Feast for Odin its all "yay things! Look at these bajillion choices!" And "look at the production value, I love drab artwork on mundane themes with nothing but cardboard in sight!"

It makes no sense! FfO in my opinion is boring, plodding, has too many bits, and is overloaded with options. Scythe is clean, streamlined, and each part (overproduced or not) serves a purpose to both mechanics and theme.

The KS commentary was certainly off track as well. I like SUSD, but Scythe is not the problem with KS. Its almost unfair to the many people who love it and the designers to say Scythe is the problem when things like Zombicide, Rum and Bones, and Arcadia Quest are things... (I honestly couldn't come up with an example that wasn't a CMON game... whoops)
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Jonathan
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MentatYP wrote:
Stannis the King wrote:
You scanned the wrong boards though:
>link<

I still don't get, why in a review of a Board Game we have to denounce people who don't always buy their games via traditional retail channel???
When he opens with "how many components the game has and that they are all too different and unnescessary and such" its really authentic to watch the A Feast of for Odin review right afterwards.


I think the component count complaint isn't meant to be taken in isolation, but rather a high component count of great quality is a positive when used in a great game but merely a distraction when married to a mediocre or even merely good game. I don't consider those 2 reviews contradictory.


This.

When I look at the components in a game like Feast for Odin I think of all the possibilities. However, when I look at Scythe I can't help but feel that it has lots of glitter wrapped around an OK core.

I could be wrong but I'd like to think Paul was implying that with Kickstarter - where people are often wowed by the superficial - it almost encourages developers to focus more on the sheen than the substance.
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Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
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evnzro wrote:
Caverna, Feast for Odin, etc. - "Look at all this stuff! I love all these bits and bobs, I just can't stop looking at them!"

Sort of, but at least the Caverna review had the skeptical Quinns going "is there too much?" and calling it "Agricola... again."
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Trevor Taylor
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Meh, people care differently about different things and have different preferences.

I love the game, so of course I love all the nice pieces that add to the playing experience. I backed via Kickstarter to of course I got the best components and at a cheap price.

I'm not a huge fan of 7 Wonders, I'll enjoy playing it, but certainly wouldn't have wanted to pay a premium to have metal coins and the like in it.

I love Terraforming Mars, so have happily paid extra to add things to it to make it a more pleasing gaming experience.

If they LOVE A Feast for Odin, then any bling in that for them is of course welcome. If they only like Scythe, they might be more bothered by having paid a premium for the game to have the nicer pieces.

I think that very few games are universally over-produced, but you will be far less tolerant of it if you don't love the game that did this.

As I love Scythe, I of course disagree with their opinion and thing some of their arguments are a little petty. But this is why you don't just trust reviewers, but learn to understand their tastes so you know how to interpret their reviews for you. I'm certainly not agree over their review.

I generally watch their videos while doing others things as they're occasionally funny and give me some idea about the games, but don't really hold great weight with their individual opinions.
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Jamey Stegmaier
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After I originally posted the review on our Facebook page, an observant viewer pointed out that it looked like Paul played the Produce action incorrectly, producing only 1 resource per territory no matter how many workers were there. The viewer thought this may have resulted in Paul's repeated use of the word "plodding."

So I reached out to Paul and asked him--just out of curiosity--how he had played the rule. I explained the correct way to Produce, and I tried to take responsibility the best I could (it's tough to get all the rules right when there's a 32-page rulebook). I never got a reply.

Despite the mixed review, as a long-time fan of SUSD, it was still really cool for me to see them do a video review of one of my games.
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Joshua Ryan
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MentatYP wrote:
I think the component count complaint isn't meant to be taken in isolation, but rather a high component count of great quality is a positive when used in a great game but merely a distraction when married to a mediocre or even merely good game. I don't consider those 2 reviews contradictory.


This is a fair point, but I guess I just don't understand where the distraction part comes in. What am I being distracted by? For a lot of people, Scythe is a mediocre game, I can't argue with that (nor does it bother me). But is the amount of stuff in the box really what's making other people think it's a great game?

The retail version just contains some wooden resource tokens, wooden bits in several colors for each person's player board, and some plastic miniatures. And they all serve a purpose. Sure, you could replace most of it with cardboard chits, I suppose, but why? Because a bunch of people don't think the game is good enough to deserve wooden bits?

Admittedly, I do own the deluxe Kickstarter version, so yes there is some bias here, but I'd still play Scythe even if I had a retail copy. I don't reach for it because I know I'm gonna get to handle/look at all those sweet, sweet realistic resource tokens and metal coins, I reach for it because I just like the game. (And I've only been able to play it solo thus far, so I don't even have anyone else to impress! Haha)
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Jesse
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evnzro wrote:
Yeah, I love SUSD, but that review really missed the mark, focusing way too much energy on such benign complaints. And based on previous reviews, it made no sense:

Caverna, Feast for Odin, etc. - "Look at all this stuff! I love all these bits and bobs, I just can't stop looking at them!"

Scythe - "Whhhhyy is there so much stuff?? This is completely unnecessary, even for a Kickstarter.. what a slog."

shake


They weren't complaining about the number of bits. I think it was more about the over-production of it all, and the obsession of over-produced parts (as opposed to focus on game design) by Kickstarter fanatics. I think it was a fair commentary about Kickstarter fanatics.

That really wasn't their complaint about the game. I find it curious you focus on that in your critique of the review.
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Jesse
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iswearihaveajob wrote:
Stannis the King wrote:
watch the A Feast of for Odin review right afterwards.


Right? Oh Scythe has too many bits and it slow and plodding and it has too many things going on... but in a Feast for Odin its all "yay things! Look at these bajillion choices!" And "look at the production value, I love drab artwork on mundane themes with nothing but cardboard in sight!"

It makes no sense! FfO in my opinion is boring, plodding, has too many bits, and is overloaded with options. Scythe is clean, streamlined, and each part (overproduced or not) serves a purpose to both mechanics and theme.

The KS commentary was certainly off track as well. I like SUSD, but Scythe is not the problem with KS. Its almost unfair to the many people who love it and the designers to say Scythe is the problem when things like Zombicide, Rum and Bones, and Arcadia Quest are things... (I honestly couldn't come up with an example that wasn't a CMON game... whoops)


The slow, plodding nature of Scythe had nothing to do with the number of bits or the number of choices (which they never mentioned as there really aren't that many choices). They were merely commenting on how each individual turn/action accomplishes almost nothing meaningful and that it takes several turns to do anything that approximates any sort of observable change in the game state. Many, MANY people have made this observation. It's not just SUSD. However, I think it's easy to overlook since turns go (or should go) fairly quickly. It doesn't at all kill the game for me or detract too much. It does make those big turns feel satisfying. However, in 5 player games with AP stricken players, it can be a drag.
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Jesse
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JJWonderboy wrote:
MentatYP wrote:
Stannis the King wrote:
You scanned the wrong boards though:
>link<

I still don't get, why in a review of a Board Game we have to denounce people who don't always buy their games via traditional retail channel???
When he opens with "how many components the game has and that they are all too different and unnescessary and such" its really authentic to watch the A Feast of for Odin review right afterwards.


I think the component count complaint isn't meant to be taken in isolation, but rather a high component count of great quality is a positive when used in a great game but merely a distraction when married to a mediocre or even merely good game. I don't consider those 2 reviews contradictory.


This.

When I look at the components in a game like Feast for Odin I think of all the possibilities. However, when I look at Scythe I can't help but feel that it has lots of glitter wrapped around an OK core.

I could be wrong but I'd like to think Paul was implying that with Kickstarter - where people are often wowed by the superficial - it almost encourages developers to focus more on the sheen than the substance.


Spot on.
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Trevor Taylor
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atomheartmother wrote:
iswearihaveajob wrote:
Stannis the King wrote:
watch the A Feast of for Odin review right afterwards.


Right? Oh Scythe has too many bits and it slow and plodding and it has too many things going on... but in a Feast for Odin its all "yay things! Look at these bajillion choices!" And "look at the production value, I love drab artwork on mundane themes with nothing but cardboard in sight!"

It makes no sense! FfO in my opinion is boring, plodding, has too many bits, and is overloaded with options. Scythe is clean, streamlined, and each part (overproduced or not) serves a purpose to both mechanics and theme.

The KS commentary was certainly off track as well. I like SUSD, but Scythe is not the problem with KS. Its almost unfair to the many people who love it and the designers to say Scythe is the problem when things like Zombicide, Rum and Bones, and Arcadia Quest are things... (I honestly couldn't come up with an example that wasn't a CMON game... whoops)


The slow, plodding nature of Scythe had nothing to do with the number of bits or the number of choices (which they never mentioned as there really aren't that many choices). They were merely commenting on how each individual turn/action accomplishes almost nothing meaningful and that it takes several turns to do anything that approximates any sort of observable change in the game state. Many, MANY people have made this observation. It's not just SUSD.


'Many' is a very subjective and un-measured statement to make on this. I also don't understand it. Does this mean, rather than people having turns that take less than a minute (meaning a maximum of around 4 minutes downtime, but less if you overlap play properly) and they do 2 core actions. They would rather people did more actions (say 4) doubling downtime's to 8 minutes (or more due to having less overlapping turns) with no reduction in overall game time (likely an increase)? Also making a player who triggers the end game having too big an advantage.

On top of all that, the small changes in game state means it's easier and faster to track what's happening in the game between turns. In a game where everything has changed complete since your last turn, it just encourages AP AND reduces the control players have. This feels like coming back to the same conversation about Scythe being a Euro game with conflict elements, it's not a dudes on a map game and so does not feel or play like them (I'd like to play a big 4x game, but hate that most of them have player turns measurable on a sun dial ).
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Jesse
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negatrev wrote:
atomheartmother wrote:
iswearihaveajob wrote:
Stannis the King wrote:
watch the A Feast of for Odin review right afterwards.


Right? Oh Scythe has too many bits and it slow and plodding and it has too many things going on... but in a Feast for Odin its all "yay things! Look at these bajillion choices!" And "look at the production value, I love drab artwork on mundane themes with nothing but cardboard in sight!"

It makes no sense! FfO in my opinion is boring, plodding, has too many bits, and is overloaded with options. Scythe is clean, streamlined, and each part (overproduced or not) serves a purpose to both mechanics and theme.

The KS commentary was certainly off track as well. I like SUSD, but Scythe is not the problem with KS. Its almost unfair to the many people who love it and the designers to say Scythe is the problem when things like Zombicide, Rum and Bones, and Arcadia Quest are things... (I honestly couldn't come up with an example that wasn't a CMON game... whoops)


The slow, plodding nature of Scythe had nothing to do with the number of bits or the number of choices (which they never mentioned as there really aren't that many choices). They were merely commenting on how each individual turn/action accomplishes almost nothing meaningful and that it takes several turns to do anything that approximates any sort of observable change in the game state. Many, MANY people have made this observation. It's not just SUSD.


'Many' is a very subjective and un-measured statement to make on this. I also don't understand it. Does this mean, rather than people having turns that take less than a minute (meaning a maximum of around 4 minutes downtime, but less if you overlap play properly) and they do 2 core actions. They would rather people did more actions (say 4) doubling downtime's to 8 minutes (or more due to having less overlapping turns) with no reduction in overall game time (likely an increase)? Also making a player who triggers the end game having too big an advantage.

On top of all that, the small changes in game state means it's easier and faster to track what's happening in the game between turns. In a game where everything has changed complete since your last turn, it just encourages AP AND reduces the control players have. This feels like coming back to the same conversation about Scythe being a Euro game with conflict elements, it's not a dudes on a map game and so does not feel or play like them (I'd like to play a big 4x game, but hate that most of them have player turns measurable on a sun dial ).


It's not the matter of how many actions you do on a turn; it's that the actions themselves are sonincremental as to not carry any individual weight. So rather than doing multiple actions on a turn, make an action accomplish more. This is especially problematic in the beginning of the game, where it takes several turns to really do anything. This is a game design decision/issue--not something a variant can change. That's the issue.

Contrast this with other Euros (not Dudes on the Map games), where an individual action accomplishes a lot and has observable and measurable change on the game stage. See Terra Mystica or Brass. Whereas in Scythe it takes me several turns to put out a building (or mech or upgrade), I do something to that effect or weight on nearly every turn on these other two games (and most Euros). You just do so little on each turn.
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Trevor Taylor
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atomheartmother wrote:
negatrev wrote:
atomheartmother wrote:
iswearihaveajob wrote:
Stannis the King wrote:
watch the A Feast of for Odin review right afterwards.


Right? Oh Scythe has too many bits and it slow and plodding and it has too many things going on... but in a Feast for Odin its all "yay things! Look at these bajillion choices!" And "look at the production value, I love drab artwork on mundane themes with nothing but cardboard in sight!"

It makes no sense! FfO in my opinion is boring, plodding, has too many bits, and is overloaded with options. Scythe is clean, streamlined, and each part (overproduced or not) serves a purpose to both mechanics and theme.

The KS commentary was certainly off track as well. I like SUSD, but Scythe is not the problem with KS. Its almost unfair to the many people who love it and the designers to say Scythe is the problem when things like Zombicide, Rum and Bones, and Arcadia Quest are things... (I honestly couldn't come up with an example that wasn't a CMON game... whoops)


The slow, plodding nature of Scythe had nothing to do with the number of bits or the number of choices (which they never mentioned as there really aren't that many choices). They were merely commenting on how each individual turn/action accomplishes almost nothing meaningful and that it takes several turns to do anything that approximates any sort of observable change in the game state. Many, MANY people have made this observation. It's not just SUSD.


'Many' is a very subjective and un-measured statement to make on this. I also don't understand it. Does this mean, rather than people having turns that take less than a minute (meaning a maximum of around 4 minutes downtime, but less if you overlap play properly) and they do 2 core actions. They would rather people did more actions (say 4) doubling downtime's to 8 minutes (or more due to having less overlapping turns) with no reduction in overall game time (likely an increase)? Also making a player who triggers the end game having too big an advantage.

On top of all that, the small changes in game state means it's easier and faster to track what's happening in the game between turns. In a game where everything has changed complete since your last turn, it just encourages AP AND reduces the control players have. This feels like coming back to the same conversation about Scythe being a Euro game with conflict elements, it's not a dudes on a map game and so does not feel or play like them (I'd like to play a big 4x game, but hate that most of them have player turns measurable on a sun dial ).


It's not the matter of how many actions you do on a turn; it's that the actions themselves are sonincremental as to not carry any individual weight. So rather than doing multiple actions on a turn, make an action accomplish more. This is especially problematic in the beginning of the game, where it takes several turns to really do anything. This is a game design decision/issue--not something a variant can change. That's the issue.

Contrast this with other Euros (not Dudes on the Map games), where an individual action accomplishes a lot and has observable and measurable change on the game stage. See Terra Mystica or Brass. Whereas in Scythe it takes me several turns to put out a building (or mech or upgrade), I do something to that effect or weight on nearly every turn on these other two games (and most Euros). You just do so little on each turn.


But that is exactly how the game scales as you improve your engine you do more with each turn. Just as in Terra Mystica you get to do more in a round. Why does it matter if early on your turn does less? It also takes under 10 seconds to do your turn at this stage, so in less than a minute you are doing your next turn and so on. An individual turn might do less at the start, but the game also progresses at a fast pace just because peoples turns are short.
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Geki
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I watch suSD exclusively for entertainment value: funny jokes, great costumes, amusing and theatrical interaction; but when people weigh in (whether positively or negatively ) on their "review" I feel like they are missing the point. Their opinions amount to little more to i enjoy this or that wrapped into true but (as highlighted here) quite aleatory comments
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atomheartmother wrote:
evnzro wrote:
Yeah, I love SUSD, but that review really missed the mark, focusing way too much energy on such benign complaints. And based on previous reviews, it made no sense:

Caverna, Feast for Odin, etc. - "Look at all this stuff! I love all these bits and bobs, I just can't stop looking at them!"

Scythe - "Whhhhyy is there so much stuff?? This is completely unnecessary, even for a Kickstarter.. what a slog."

shake


They weren't complaining about the number of bits. I think it was more about the over-production of it all, and the obsession of over-produced parts (as opposed to focus on game design) by Kickstarter fanatics. I think it was a fair commentary about Kickstarter fanatics.

That really wasn't their complaint about the game. I find it curious you focus on that in your critique of the review.


So then do a review of Kickstarter and its fanatics instead. Haha. I'm focusing on this because it's the part that seemed out of place. The actual review part, where he talks about the gameplay (even if I disagree) is fine. I have no problem there.

But.. why choose Scythe as the soapbox with which to belabor the point about over-production, and then do so by showing off a retail copy of the game? I'm assuming it was based solely on the hype? It just didn't make any sense that this was the game that finally pushed Paul and crew over the edge with rampant and unnecessary Kickstarter over-production. (And why did Paul seem so miserable? Was he trying to match the "plodding" style of Scythe with a plodding review?)

Maybe I'm missing something, or perhaps I'm just too new to the hobby to appreciate how excellent, highly rated games should look vs how mediocre games should look, but when it comes to Scythe I only see a ton of wooden bits, some cardboard coins, a few plastic miniatures, and some recessed player boards, I'm not seeing the over-production. To me it just looks like many other games I've seen. Is the art too nice for what it is? Are the player boards too thick?

I just don't understand this mentality that "If the gameplay isn't as superb or alluring or mechanically tight as something like Terra Mystica or Caverna, then it shouldn't be allowed to have nicer art, or double-ply recessed player boards, or plastic minis. Components must always match the gameplay!.. (Unless, of course, the gameplay and mechanics are soooo good that the production quality doesn't matter, like Terraforming Mars.) Scythe has too much glitter and polish for a sub-par game, and it's clearly the only reason it's rated so highly!"
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evnzro wrote:
But.. why choose Scythe as the soapbox with which to belabor the point about over-production, and then do so by showing off a retail copy of the game? I'm assuming it was based solely on the hype? It just didn't make any sense that this was the game that finally pushed Paul and crew over the edge with rampant and unnecessary Kickstarter over-production. (And why did Paul seem so miserable? Was he trying to match the "plodding" style of Scythe with a plodding review?)

Maybe I'm missing something, or perhaps I'm just too new to the hobby to appreciate how excellent, highly rated games should look vs how mediocre games should look, but when it comes to Scythe I only see a ton of wooden bits, some cardboard coins, a few plastic miniatures, and some recessed player boards, I'm not seeing the over-production. To me it just looks like many other games I've seen. Is the art too nice for what it is? Are the player boards too thick?


In re: the first part, I think they'd been hearing "Review Scythe!" from so many people that they felt compelled to do so, but it was obvious that their hearts weren't really in it. (The single best part/point of the game was the in-joke about Paul getting caught on the other side of the micro-stream in the very beginning.)

In re: the second: Oh how I wish countless other games would opt for the double-thickness boards with recesses. I know it's more expensive, but imagine Great Western Trail with recesses (yes, I know about the acrylic overlays), or Terra Mystica, or Castles of Burgundy...
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The more I think about this, the more this makes sense to me: while Scythe has an engine and definite gameplay, the central interesting point about the game is what your opponents choose to do with those systems. This means that your enjoyment/dislike of Scythe is almost certainly going to be affected by your chosen group of opponents. Other euros, like CoB, GWT, etc., are far more multiplayer solitaire and have only resource contention as a mechanism for interacting with others, while Scythe has the Cold War affect going on almost constantly. If your opponents are willing to do their best to heighten tension and make moves that threaten your plans, I think you'll enjoy it far more than if you all simply concentrate on engine-building and skirt each other as much as possible.

tl;dr: Scythe may require someone/someones to be more than a little mean, underhanded, etc. for it to truly be enjoyable.

Maybe the SUSD guys simply lacked the group willing to dive into the game in a manner that would result in this sort of play...
 
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negatrev wrote:
atomheartmother wrote:
negatrev wrote:
atomheartmother wrote:
iswearihaveajob wrote:
Stannis the King wrote:
watch the A Feast of for Odin review right afterwards.


Right? Oh Scythe has too many bits and it slow and plodding and it has too many things going on... but in a Feast for Odin its all "yay things! Look at these bajillion choices!" And "look at the production value, I love drab artwork on mundane themes with nothing but cardboard in sight!"

It makes no sense! FfO in my opinion is boring, plodding, has too many bits, and is overloaded with options. Scythe is clean, streamlined, and each part (overproduced or not) serves a purpose to both mechanics and theme.

The KS commentary was certainly off track as well. I like SUSD, but Scythe is not the problem with KS. Its almost unfair to the many people who love it and the designers to say Scythe is the problem when things like Zombicide, Rum and Bones, and Arcadia Quest are things... (I honestly couldn't come up with an example that wasn't a CMON game... whoops)


The slow, plodding nature of Scythe had nothing to do with the number of bits or the number of choices (which they never mentioned as there really aren't that many choices). They were merely commenting on how each individual turn/action accomplishes almost nothing meaningful and that it takes several turns to do anything that approximates any sort of observable change in the game state. Many, MANY people have made this observation. It's not just SUSD.


'Many' is a very subjective and un-measured statement to make on this. I also don't understand it. Does this mean, rather than people having turns that take less than a minute (meaning a maximum of around 4 minutes downtime, but less if you overlap play properly) and they do 2 core actions. They would rather people did more actions (say 4) doubling downtime's to 8 minutes (or more due to having less overlapping turns) with no reduction in overall game time (likely an increase)? Also making a player who triggers the end game having too big an advantage.

On top of all that, the small changes in game state means it's easier and faster to track what's happening in the game between turns. In a game where everything has changed complete since your last turn, it just encourages AP AND reduces the control players have. This feels like coming back to the same conversation about Scythe being a Euro game with conflict elements, it's not a dudes on a map game and so does not feel or play like them (I'd like to play a big 4x game, but hate that most of them have player turns measurable on a sun dial ).


It's not the matter of how many actions you do on a turn; it's that the actions themselves are sonincremental as to not carry any individual weight. So rather than doing multiple actions on a turn, make an action accomplish more. This is especially problematic in the beginning of the game, where it takes several turns to really do anything. This is a game design decision/issue--not something a variant can change. That's the issue.

Contrast this with other Euros (not Dudes on the Map games), where an individual action accomplishes a lot and has observable and measurable change on the game stage. See Terra Mystica or Brass. Whereas in Scythe it takes me several turns to put out a building (or mech or upgrade), I do something to that effect or weight on nearly every turn on these other two games (and most Euros). You just do so little on each turn.


But that is exactly how the game scales as you improve your engine you do more with each turn. Just as in Terra Mystica you get to do more in a round. Why does it matter if early on your turn does less? It also takes under 10 seconds to do your turn at this stage, so in less than a minute you are doing your next turn and so on. An individual turn might do less at the start, but the game also progresses at a fast pace just because peoples turns are short.


But with Terra Mystica, every action is big and meaningful. That doesn't change from the first turn to the last. As is the case with most good Euros. In Scythe, the turns are still only slightly more impactful later in the game than earlier when you're more consistently able to do a bottom row action. But even then, it's not every turn. What's more is that the engine building in Scythe is very light and somewhat superficial. The game still feels like rinse and repeat even late in the game.
 
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zamoose wrote:
The more I think about this, the more this makes sense to me: while Scythe has an engine and definite gameplay, the central interesting point about the game is what your opponents choose to do with those systems. This means that your enjoyment/dislike of Scythe is almost certainly going to be affected by your chosen group of opponents. Other euros, like CoB, GWT, etc., are far more multiplayer solitaire and have only resource contention as a mechanism for interacting with others, while Scythe has the Cold Ware affect going on almost constantly. If your opponents are willing to do their best to heighten tension and make moves that threaten your plans, I think you'll enjoy it far more than if you all simply concentrate on engine-building and skirt each other as much as possible.

tl;dr: Scythe may require someone/someones to be more than a little mean, underhanded, etc. for it to truly be enjoyable.

Maybe the SUSD guys simply lacked the group willing to dive into the game in a manner that would result in this sort of play...


Really interesting you bring up interaction. The most common complaint that I hear when playing Scythe is that there is little interaction. Which is relatively true. The only interaction is attacking. You can't otherwise stop them from doing whatever they want. There's no blocking of actions or taking of limited supplies of things (other than random encounters). Attacking has a very high cost in the game, and it's often more advantageous to do something else than to attack. In many cases, attacking is a sub-optimal action. This is problematic when it's the only form of interaction.

The other point they brought up that others haven't is how much luck and randomness is prssent in the game. There's too much, and it hampers the experience. Ironically, the combat is one of the parts that doesn't have luck.
 
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atomheartmother wrote:
Really interesting you bring up interaction. The most common complaint that I hear when playing Scythe is that there is little interaction. Which is relatively true. The only interaction is attacking. You can't otherwise stop them from doing whatever they want. There's no blocking of actions or taking of limited supplies of things (other than random encounters). Attacking has a very high cost in the game, and it's often more advantageous to do something else than to attack. In many cases, attacking is a sub-optimal action. This is problematic when it's the only form of interaction.

The other point they brought up that others haven't is how much luck and randomness is prssent in the game. There's too much, and it hampers the experience. Ironically, the combat is one of the parts that doesn't have luck.


I'd argue that the Cold War indirect interaction is key. You *don't* only interact through combat -- you also interact via getting to encounters first, or placing a prohibitive number of workers on an attractive hex, or trapping a sweet hex, or snaking the Factory first, etc.

You're not just being aggressive, you're also being passive-aggressive.

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zamoose wrote:

In re: the second: Oh how I wish countless other games would opt for the double-thickness boards with recesses. I know it's more expensive, but imagine Great Western Trail with recesses (yes, I know about the acrylic overlays), or Terra Mystica, or Castles of Burgundy...


Add Eclipse to the list: those rows of cubes are really a pain, a simple touch can mess up your board.
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zamoose wrote:
atomheartmother wrote:
Really interesting you bring up interaction. The most common complaint that I hear when playing Scythe is that there is little interaction. Which is relatively true. The only interaction is attacking. You can't otherwise stop them from doing whatever they want. There's no blocking of actions or taking of limited supplies of things (other than random encounters). Attacking has a very high cost in the game, and it's often more advantageous to do something else than to attack. In many cases, attacking is a sub-optimal action. This is problematic when it's the only form of interaction.

The other point they brought up that others haven't is how much luck and randomness is prssent in the game. There's too much, and it hampers the experience. Ironically, the combat is one of the parts that doesn't have luck.


I'd argue that the Cold War indirect interaction is key. You *don't* only interact through combat -- you also interact via getting to encounters first, or placing a prohibitive number of workers on an attractive hex, or trapping a sweet hex, or snaking the Factory first, etc.

You're not just being aggressive, you're also being passive-aggressive.



But most of those will require sub-optimal actions. Whoever is doing those is going to lose and only benefit other players.
 
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