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Subject: What's Your Assessment of the new May 4th Kickstarter Campaign? rss

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Duo Maxwell
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I think that the campaign is clearly doing significantly better than the last canceled project even though both are over 100% funded. The new campaign is currently 136% and this is better than the previous. However, it feels to me that this project would be at higher pledge total level. It feels like the project has stalled a little bit. To be fair, this is common in a lot of projects. I guess, I was expecting more of the same levels as seen in Rising Sun or Mythic Battles or Blood Rage - which in hindsight might have been unrealistic. I am currently backing the project and I have confidence it will be a really good game. Even if you think the campaign is doing just fine and nothing to see here, then you can also let me know as well.

What is your assessment of this campaign as it stands right now?
Do you see any missteps continued from the last campaign?
Any new missteps?
What is your opinion on how the pledge level could be reinvigorated?

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Zachary Homrighaus
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Get ready for some angry backers questioning your intentions!
 
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Rome Knows Nothing
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Your Mama
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I think the campaign is going fine. I think everyone who knew about the first campaign and liked it, backed it the second time within the first few days.

It is slow right now, but every campaign has a slow point, even Rising Sun pretty much stalled, at least until they put up the first Add-on. I think HoLAaS needs to get back in the headlines of board gaming news to gather momentum. They did an okay job of this the first time, but it's been a month and people are forgetting. They really need Third Party reviewer to review the game with the newer prototypes and remove the videos with the standees and old board. I think it is turning off new backers if that is all they see.

One thing I am a little disappointed in is the combining the Expansions, I was just going to get the Order One for the Undead, but now I have to get both, and it is more than I was going to pay before. But it makes sense for GG, and I am still backing the Deluxe Version.
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David Molina
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Seems like it's going well. According to kicktraq it's trending towards 1.2 million. I agree once more video gameplays are posted it'll pick up again. We will be getting examples of painted minis and that should help with those that are interested in that option.
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Zachary Homrighaus
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KingJackalope wrote:
Seems like it's going well. According to kicktraq it's trending towards 1.2 million. I agree once more video gameplays are posted it'll pick up again. We will be getting examples of painted minis and that should help with those that are interested in that option.


**non-confrontational reply**

I too was curious to see how the project was doing and checked out Kicktraq. I noticed the same "Trend" at $1.2M which seemed way too high just based on my experience watching other campaigns. I then clicked on "Projection" and saw a range between $485k and $685k. That seems more reasonable based on my experience... it's in the doldrums now, but will have a good last few days in June... but those last days won't be as big as the first 2 based on countless other campaigns.

Anyone else know how to interpret the Kicktraq charts? Below is link to the one I am referencing.

https://www.kicktraq.com/projects/coe/heroes-of-land-air-and...
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Michael Off The Shelf Board Game Reviews
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cbrook29 wrote:
I think that the campaign is clearly doing significantly better than the last canceled project even though both are over 100% funded. The new campaign is currently 136% and this is better than the previous. However, it feels to me that this project would be at higher pledge total level. It feels like the project has stalled a little bit. To be fair, this is common in a lot of projects. I guess, I was expecting more of the same levels as seen in Rising Sun or Mythic Battles or Blood Rage - which in hindsight might have been unrealistic. I am currently backing the project and I have confidence it will be a really good game. Even if you think the campaign is doing just fine and nothing to see here, then you can also let me know as well.

What is your assessment of this campaign as it stands right now?
Do you see any missteps continued from the last campaign?
Any new missteps?
What is your opinion on how the pledge level could be reinvigorated?



Simply put instead of backing out 25% of the box and then reintroducing it as "Stretch Goals" hello [Redacted Game developers names], they set everything out in the beginning. While it is a nice refreshing breeze of honesty it has the downside that you won't see this be a million seller because most people will make the logical leap that they can just get everything in retail.

This is a double edged sword in many ways. It wont hit high levels because there isn't a strong push for that to happen, which has the snowball effect of people thinking "something is wrong" so they will question if they should back or not, which will diminish the hype, on and on. Simply put Kickstarter thrives on hype and the OCD mentality of "OH NoZ I might miss some irrelevant tchotchke."

The good news is the game is funded, Gamelyn will produce the game, and simple math will show you it is already a really, really good value. If you question this go look at any retail game on the market right now and see how much it costs for 80 and then 160 plastic miniatures and multiple cardboard forts/ships/boats.

That in a nutshell is the bottom line here, ask yourself how much would this game cost at retail today, ask yourself if this is a game style you might like, and finally ask yourself if this is a company that makes a quality game design or not. If enough of those answers are Yes, then you know what to do.

Edit: I am absolutely baffled why they did not get this prototype out to reviewers though, kind of a foolish decision.

Edit in the 2nd: I just looked, they have already locked in over 2 thousand backers, in a campaign that doesn't have the fake $1 pledge tier for hype numbers, this is actually very good. Compare it to other normal game projects.
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Grumsh wrote:
cbrook29 wrote:
I think that the campaign is clearly doing significantly better than the last canceled project even though both are over 100% funded. The new campaign is currently 136% and this is better than the previous. However, it feels to me that this project would be at higher pledge total level. It feels like the project has stalled a little bit. To be fair, this is common in a lot of projects. I guess, I was expecting more of the same levels as seen in Rising Sun or Mythic Battles or Blood Rage - which in hindsight might have been unrealistic. I am currently backing the project and I have confidence it will be a really good game. Even if you think the campaign is doing just fine and nothing to see here, then you can also let me know as well.

What is your assessment of this campaign as it stands right now?
Do you see any missteps continued from the last campaign?
Any new missteps?
What is your opinion on how the pledge level could be reinvigorated?



Simply put instead of backing out 25% of the box and then reintroducing it as "Stretch Goals" hello [Redacted Game developers names], they set everything out in the beginning. While it is a nice refreshing breeze of honesty it has the downside that you won't see this be a million seller because most people will make the logical leap that they can just get everything in retail.

This is a double edged sword in many ways. It wont hit high levels because there isn't a strong push for that to happen, which has the snowball effect of people thinking "something is wrong" so they will question if they should back or not, which will diminish the hype, on and on. Simply put Kickstarter thrives on hype and the OCD mentality of "OH NoZ I might miss some irrelevant tchotchke."

The good news is the game is funded, Gamelyn will produce the game, and simple math will show you it is already a really, really good value. If you question this go look at any retail game on the market right now and see how much it costs for 80 and then 160 plastic miniatures and multiple cardboard forts/ships/boats.

That in a nutshell is the bottom line here, ask yourself how much would this game cost at retail today, ask yourself if this is a game style you might like, and finally ask yourself if this is a company that makes a quality game design or not. If enough of those answers are Yes, then you know what to do.

Edit: I am absolutely baffled why they did not get this prototype out to reviewers though, kind of a foolish decision.


To add to your point about the value of the game, yes the cost to value for the physical tangible things is good. Then there is also the value of the game play. Each faction has 24 unique abilities, and you probably can't even use them all in one game. There seems to be so many possible combinations of powers to drive your strategy of play, many people will want to play the same faction multiple time to really understand and use that faction to the fullest. And there are 8 factions! This is what I am excited about.

It also plays 1-6 players, and I bet it plays differently at all the different player counts. I bet there is a lot of conflict and fighting for area control at 3-6 players (especially 4 and 6 when there are no unoccupied contents. I bet at 2 players you can play more defensive and focus on other things besides combat (unless someone is playing the Orcs appropriately).
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Matthew Gabbert
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Grumsh wrote:
Edit in the 2nd: I just looked, they have already locked in over 2 thousand backers, in a campaign that doesn't have the fake $1 pledge tier for hype numbers, this is actually very good. Compare it to other normal game projects.

Point of information: Anyone can pledge for $1; it doesn't require a preset $1 tier. Case in point: HoLAS currently has 2152 backers, but the $79 and $139 tiers only account for 2007 backers, so 145 people (6.7%) didn't select either of those tiers.
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Zachary Homrighaus
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zjhomrighaus wrote:
KingJackalope wrote:
Seems like it's going well. According to kicktraq it's trending towards 1.2 million. I agree once more video gameplays are posted it'll pick up again. We will be getting examples of painted minis and that should help with those that are interested in that option.


**non-confrontational reply**

I too was curious to see how the project was doing and checked out Kicktraq. I noticed the same "Trend" at $1.2M which seemed way too high just based on my experience watching other campaigns. I then clicked on "Projection" and saw a range between $485k and $685k. That seems more reasonable based on my experience... it's in the doldrums now, but will have a good last few days in June... but those last days won't be as big as the first 2 based on countless other campaigns.

Anyone else know how to interpret the Kicktraq charts? Below is link to the one I am referencing.

https://www.kicktraq.com/projects/coe/heroes-of-land-air-and...


Just gave Kicktraq another look. The projection is now $408k - $478k, so it's narrowing in. If you look at the daily numbers, the campaign has settled into a pretty flat pattern averaging about $3,500 per day after the first week.

If this daily funding continues until the final 2 days (where we can expect an uptick from FOMO), they are on track for about $415k before whatever bump they'll get on the last few days. Their next several SGs include an additional 5 NPC minis and 6-7 cards before you get to a new exclusive mini at $425k. I wonder if switching up the order of those might move the needle a bit more? Are people motivated by 5 additional NPC minis considering they already have 5? Also, surely the single Exclusive mini is cheaper to produce and ship (thought I suppose they already have the mold for the NPC minis and wouldn't need to produce the exclusive if they don't reach $425k).
 
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Daniel Cheston
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I'm betting if the current stretch goal is not reached, the exclusive mini will be available for purchase as an add-on.
 
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David Molina
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chestond wrote:
I'm betting if the current stretch goal is not reached, the exclusive mini will be available for purchase as an add-on.


Well right now its at $361,785. Has 18 days to go. If it keeps making $4k a day (has every day except 2) it will add $72,000. That will make it $433,785 and this does not account for any end of campaign boost that I think all know will come. The last goal is $425,000, seems like we should hit that. I think as more and more comes out the total will actually be a lot closer to $500k, but I think the $425 will be reached for sure.
 
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Zachary Homrighaus
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Took another look at Kicktraq this morning... it's been a bad week for campaign... here are the totals and number of backers in ():

$4,597 (28)
$2,503 (15)
$28 (1)
$299 (5)
$2,281 (18)
-$80 (4)
$2,061 (17)

No, those aren't typos... $28, $299 and -$80 in the past 5 days. I particularly fascinated by the -$80 day... they added 4 backers and still went backward $80. There are certainly lots of ways that could happen, but it seems like they lost many backers or had people downgrading their pledges all on the same day... I haven't tried to triangulate what if anything happened that day with the campaign, but I'm curious if there is any correlation between those defections or if it's just random chance.

The overall campaign projection is now $386k - $398k, so it doesn't even predict breaking $400k. OK, so these are just projections, but it certainly isn't a good sign for a big rally and strong finish. When I look at the campaign, I'm trying to see what would convince someone who is on the fence to pledge... the upcoming SGs don't seem too exciting and they also seem a mile away considering the last 5 days in particular.

I have noticed the team is releasing details about the expansion factions... that could certainly help if they can produce a little buzz about cool abilities, but it seems like that is mostly just making current backers excited.

What else could/should GG do to breathe a little more life into the campaign? If you are on the fence, is there anything that would make you consider backing? For my part, I thought the solo rules, play through and explanation that each faction has their own solo AI was a pretty strong addition. It looks like it did goose the numbers briefly, but it's not clear whether that will bring more people to the campaign in the coming weeks.
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John Fiala
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zjhomrighaus wrote:
What else could/should GG do to breathe a little more life into the campaign? If you are on the fence, is there anything that would make you consider backing? For my part, I thought the solo rules, play through and explanation that each faction has their own solo AI was a pretty strong addition. It looks like it did goose the numbers briefly, but it's not clear whether that will bring more people to the campaign in the coming weeks.


Well, speaking as someone who's vaguely interested in the game, and was just checking out the campaign - it looks like I could put down $80 plus shipping to get a copy in ten-twelve months, or I could wait 18 months and get a copy on sale without shipping for $50-$60, and get the same game. I'm not really sure what use the Nomads are in the game, so missing out on the stretch goals doesn't worry me that much.
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jcfiala wrote:


Well, speaking as someone who's vaguely interested in the game, and was just checking out the campaign - it looks like I could put down $80 plus shipping to get a copy in ten-twelve months, or I could wait 18 months and get a copy on sale without shipping for $50-$60, and get the same game. I'm not really sure what use the Nomads are in the game, so missing out on the stretch goals doesn't worry me that much.


Yeah, I am going to wait for this to hit retail. I have been bit too many times with paying full MSRP and not getting much in return. Kickstarter has become a real money bag for game companies not having to go through a middle man anymore yet charge full MSRP for their products. While I am not necessarily against that, I am seeing where I, as the consumer, have lost out. Sure, you get a lot of extra stuff, but I have found that it doesn't add anything to the real meat of any game, especially when you consider just how many times you are actually going to play it. My days of paying $120+ for a $60 game is coming to a rapid end (until I get suckered again).

-Ski
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Teamski wrote:

Yeah, I am going to wait for this to hit retail. I have been bit too many times with paying full MSRP and not getting much in return. Kickstarter has become a real money bag for game companies not having to go through a middle man anymore yet charge full MSRP for their products. While I am not necessarily against that, I am seeing where I, as the consumer, have lost out. Sure, you get a lot of extra stuff, but I have found that it doesn't add anything to the real meat of any game, especially when you consider just how many times you are actually going to play it. My days of paying $120+ for a $60 game is coming to a rapid end (until I get suckered again).

-Ski


But you won't be getting the same thing. You will not be getting any of the Mercenaries. This game isn't at MSRP anyway its 20% off of that with added bonuses. If you are not going to play the game much then it would be silly to spend $80 for any game be it board or video or whatever. I really don't think you are going to see t his game out there for $40 in a year if that is what you are thinking unless you pick it up used from someone and that would surprise me.

I don't see the Mercenaries as a throw away mechanic at all. They seem to add a lot of variables to the game. I think each one will bring different skills and will change the game greatly each time one is introduced to the game session.

I have a lot of faith in Gamelyn and they have, for me, proven themselves beyond any doubt they put out great games that have a lot to offer for replaying.
 
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zjhomrighaus wrote:
If you are on the fence, is there anything that would make you consider backing?

A German [Spanish/French] language conversion kit add-on. See e.g. what Leder Games did with their last Kickstarter for Vast: The Crystal Caverns. Or at least foreign language PDFs. Print out, put in front of sleeved original card, home-made conversion kit done.

I have friends who do not enjoy playing English language games too much, so making the game more attractive for non-English native speakers would increase my chance of backing it considerably.
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KingJackalope wrote:
Teamski wrote:

Yeah, I am going to wait for this to hit retail. I have been bit too many times with paying full MSRP and not getting much in return. Kickstarter has become a real money bag for game companies not having to go through a middle man anymore yet charge full MSRP for their products. While I am not necessarily against that, I am seeing where I, as the consumer, have lost out. Sure, you get a lot of extra stuff, but I have found that it doesn't add anything to the real meat of any game, especially when you consider just how many times you are actually going to play it. My days of paying $120+ for a $60 game is coming to a rapid end (until I get suckered again).

-Ski


But you won't be getting the same thing. You will not be getting any of the Mercenaries. This game isn't at MSRP anyway its 20% off of that with added bonuses.


Well, that's not clear from a light reading of the kickstarter, so I didn't know it. So, it's a $100 game MSRP? Also, exactly how good of a supplement the mercenaries are isn't clear either from reading the front page of the kickstarter, so I can't tell how good of a supplement it is.

If the problem is that Gamelyn isn't presenting this sort of information to casual readers, then that's on them.
 
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jcfiala wrote:

Well, that's not clear from a light reading of the kickstarter, so I didn't know it. So, it's a $100 game MSRP? Also, exactly how good of a supplement the mercenaries are isn't clear either from reading the front page of the kickstarter, so I can't tell how good of a supplement it is.

If the problem is that Gamelyn isn't presenting this sort of information to casual readers, then that's on them.


First thing under the Mercenaries is:

wrote:

Mercenaries are a Kickstarter promo that will not be available in retail, though future players will be able to buy them directly from Gamelyn Games. For backing us on Kickstarter, you are getting them for FREE!


At the VERY top of the page it states:

wrote:

Why Back This Project?

• Great Game! An easy to learn and easy to play big box 4x by Scott Almes. His best work yet! ---- Now with SOLO Play and Team Play (2v2, 3v3 and 2v2v2)!

• Huge Discounts! Over 20% off MSRP! Will have limited retail availabiltiy.

• Awesome Stretch Goals! Your pledge helps unlock additional FREE content!


Then immediately shows the free minis and stretch goals for backing and says they will not be available for retail.
 
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KingJackalope wrote:

First thing under the Mercenaries is:

wrote:

Mercenaries are a Kickstarter promo that will not be available in retail, though future players will be able to buy them directly from Gamelyn Games. For backing us on Kickstarter, you are getting them for FREE!



Still doesn't tell me how good that promo will be.
KingJackalope wrote:

At the VERY top of the page it states:


Hm. Well, I guess I'm not very good at reading their kickstarter. Dunno why, I seem to read all the rest of them just fine. Maybe I'm just not the target audience.
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jcfiala wrote:

Still doesn't tell me how good that promo will be.


How do you know how good any promo is before you get it? You don't I trust this company as they haven't let me down yet with their games. Again, no reports have come back about it sucking. At some point trust comes into it. You want a 100% guarantee that is "suck proof"? Not going to get it. It might be the best thing I've ever played and the worst thing you've ever played. Different strokes for different folks. Just how life is.
 
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It's been about a week, so I thought I'd check in on Kicktraq again. Yikes... not a great week for the campaign. Below are the totals (dollars and backers) for the past 6 days.

$194 (0)
$451 (6)
$2,055 (14)
$43 (5)
$780 (13)
$2,917 (16)

What jumps out at me (aside from the 4 days of sub $1,000 gains) is the day with $43. They gained 5 backers, but only gained $43. Similarly if you compare the number of backers gained on the last 2 days with the amount of money raised, it seems there are a lot of people reducing or dropping bids. This isn't a great sign. Ignoring the numbers and reading the 2nd sentence of the latest update kinda tells the same story (emphasis mine):

"Thanks to all those who have stuck around and showed their loyalty to this project."

OK, so what can/should GG do to make a big push for the final 5 days? Are there any issues with the game that can be resolved? Are there add ons or optional buy ups they can announce (maybe the map pack that has been discussed)? Are there any people who dropped their bid who can explain why?

My guess is that the campaign just kind of stalled and people didn't see enough KS Exclusives to whet their appetite. If you compare this to a typical CMoN campaign (excluding Rising Sun), you'd have a box full of unlocked content at this point and a big push to unlock even more. Now say what you will about whether CMoN pulls a bunch of stuff out of the box to then add it back in as exclusives... the backers feel like they're getting a ton of extras. In this case, since the campaign got stuck the past few weeks, there just hasn't been much added to the base game so perhaps backers decided it wasn't worth it. Just a guess... anyone have other theories?

Edit: Striking through the bit about Rising Sun... I confused the single pledge level with not having exclusives... now that I remember, there was the normal CMoN raft of exclusives that were unlocked throughout the campaign... just no add ons or optional expansions.
 
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zjhomrighaus wrote:
It's been about a week, so I thought I'd check in on Kicktraq again. Yikes... not a great week for the campaign. Below are the totals (dollars and backers) for the past 6 days.

$194 (0)
$451 (6)
$2,055 (14)
$43 (5)
$780 (13)
$2,917 (16)

What jumps out at me (aside from the 4 days of sub $1,000 gains) is the day with $43. They gained 5 backers, but only gained $43. Similarly if you compare the number of backers gained on the last 2 days with the amount of money raised, it seems there are a lot of people reducing or dropping bids. This isn't a great sign. Ignoring the numbers and reading the 2nd sentence of the latest update kinda tells the same story (emphasis mine):

"Thanks to all those who have stuck around and showed their loyalty to this project."

OK, so what can/should GG do to make a big push for the final 5 days? Are there any issues with the game that can be resolved? Are there add ons or optional buy ups they can announce (maybe the map pack that has been discussed)? Are there any people who dropped their bid who can explain why?

My guess is that the campaign just kind of stalled and people didn't see enough KS Exclusives to whet their appetite. If you compare this to a typical CMoN campaign (excluding Rising Sun), you'd have a box full of unlocked content at this point and a big push to unlock even more. Now say what you will about whether CMoN pulls a bunch of stuff out of the box to then add it back in as exclusives... the backers feel like they're getting a ton of extras. In this case, since the campaign got stuck the past few weeks, there just hasn't been much added to the base game so perhaps backers decided it wasn't worth it. Just a guess... anyone have other theories?


The minis and ships and stuff intrigued me at first. I have never played the Tiny Epic games. I dropped my pledge because it's just too much money to spend on a game I don't know how good it will be. I'm concerned it's all about the minis and not about the gameplay.

I really love the short game length, but outside of that, there's not much that intrigues me anymore.
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KingJackalope wrote:
jcfiala wrote:

Still doesn't tell me how good that promo will be.


How do you know how good any promo is before you get it? You don't I trust this company as they haven't let me down yet with their games. Again, no reports have come back about it sucking. At some point trust comes into it. You want a 100% guarantee that is "suck proof"? Not going to get it. It might be the best thing I've ever played and the worst thing you've ever played. Different strokes for different folks. Just how life is.


Well, yeah. But the topic is, "What's your Assessment of the ... Campaign". If you're not interested in other folks assessment of the campaign, then why get so upset?
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jcfiala wrote:
[q="KingJackalope"]Well, yeah. But the topic is, "What's your Assessment of the ... Campaign". If you're not interested in other folks assessment of the campaign, then why get so upset?


lol I'm not upset in the least. your 'assessment' is funny to begin with. You say it's not clear about what SGs are KS exclusive, despite being about the first thing you actually read. Then you say it doesn't say how good it will be. Like there is a "How good is a promo" chart they are suppose to reference.
"This is a 8 out of 10 on the universal promo chart!!"
"well now I KNOW how good it will be! Thank goodness for the chart."
 
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