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Subject: Making your own boards rss

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bruce ross
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Anyone here ever make new game boards? North Africa? Normandy?

If so, mind sharing your techniques?

Thanks!
 
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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acctingman wrote:
Anyone here ever make new game boards? North Africa? Normandy?

If so, mind sharing your techniques?

Thanks!


I'd be surprised if people made their own expansions for completely different theatres -- since the order of battle included is for the Eastern Front (not Africa or the Western).
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Confusion Under Fire
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I think it would be very difficult to make additional mapboards, just simply because the artwork is not generic, it's like a work of art rather than modular terrain.

I think if Academy ever produced maps for CoH they would sell like hot cakes. The Marsh has sold 1300 copies.
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Ben Bosmans
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That's the reason I am eagerly waiting for the CoH Storms of Steel expansion now, since it has a great number of overlays in that box.

With overlays you can create a LOT of new boards for the Firefight Generator.

So I think it is great to have these new art overlays.

Also Uwe send me a mail where they confirmed that the new SoS will have new firefights on top of the old ones AND it will have a new Campaign.

Also important was that they were thinking of putting the spend mechanic of the solo game up as an option for the multi player game. He mentioned a special die to emulate the solo card spend check. But not all was decided.

I would prefer the chits created by Kevin, but I guess a special/customised die would be cool too .
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Doug Click
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Ben_Bos wrote:
He mentioned a special die to emulate the solo card spend check. But not all was decided.

I would prefer the chits created by Kevin, but I guess a special/customised die would be cool too .


No die. Give me those chits and I would be a happy camper.
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Russ Williams
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Using a die seems quite reasonable (and simpler/easier) to me. Each value appears about 1/6 of the time on the cards and chits.
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Doug Click
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russ wrote:
Using a die seems quite reasonable (and simpler/easier) to me. Each value appears about 1/6 of the time on the cards and chits.


But, instead of having a "set number of values" you get a completely random die roll.

With chits, you can think, "Hmmm, I have seen two of those ones come out, so what are my odds moving and not being spent" whereas with a die roll it is just luck on what you roll. No decisions being made based on the game being played, just "I am going to move this and hope for a good roll".
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John McD
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Sayburr wrote:
russ wrote:
Using a die seems quite reasonable (and simpler/easier) to me. Each value appears about 1/6 of the time on the cards and chits.


But, instead of having a "set number of values" you get a completely random die roll.

With chits, you can think, "Hmmm, I have seen two of those ones come out, so what are my odds moving and not being spent" whereas with a die roll it is just luck on what you roll. No decisions being made based on the game being played, just "I am going to move this and hope for a good roll".


So you want the gameier solution? Die is good for making each event independent surely?
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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BlackSpy wrote:
Sayburr wrote:
russ wrote:
Using a die seems quite reasonable (and simpler/easier) to me. Each value appears about 1/6 of the time on the cards and chits.


But, instead of having a "set number of values" you get a completely random die roll.

With chits, you can think, "Hmmm, I have seen two of those ones come out, so what are my odds moving and not being spent" whereas with a die roll it is just luck on what you roll. No decisions being made based on the game being played, just "I am going to move this and hope for a good roll".


So you want the gameier solution? Die is good for making each event independent surely?


Gamier (and inferior) is the die roll.

Even Uwe's suggested die-roll alternative was not a simple d6.

The cards/chit method works just so much better. Yes, the die roll is easier of course -- and perfectly suitable to try out random spent checks. But the better method allows for a better distribution of results as well as depletion of those results AND random refreshing of the pool. Something that cannot be duplicated with a d6.

So definitely try it with the die. But then take the training wheels off and get the cards or make the chits.

russ wrote:
Using a die seems quite reasonable (and simpler/easier) to me. Each value appears about 1/6 of the time on the cards and chits.


But they don't get removed from the pool and reset with the die.
 
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Russ Williams
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klkitchens wrote:
So definitely try it with the die. But then take the training wheels off and get the cards or make the chits.

russ wrote:
Using a die seems quite reasonable (and simpler/easier) to me. Each value appears about 1/6 of the time on the cards and chits.


But they don't get removed from the pool and reset with the die.

So? Why is it better to do these random checks interdependently without replacement instead of independently with replacement?

The only reason I can imagine is that you want card-counting/chit-counting to be part of the strategy/tactics of playing, even though it has no obvious thematic reason or relation to the reality of independent actions on various parts of the battlefield.
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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russ wrote:
klkitchens wrote:
So definitely try it with the die. But then take the training wheels off and get the cards or make the chits.

russ wrote:
Using a die seems quite reasonable (and simpler/easier) to me. Each value appears about 1/6 of the time on the cards and chits.


But they don't get removed from the pool and reset with the die.

So? Why is it better to do these random checks interdependently without replacement instead of independently with replacement?

The only reason I can imagine is that you want card-counting/chit-counting to be part of the strategy/tactics of playing, even though it has no obvious thematic reason or relation to the reality of independent actions on various parts of the battlefield.


Nope. I never count them. No reason too. However I like the fact that the supply is limited of each one.

And it's how the solo system works.

And the point is to apply the solo system spent check to base game scenarios as well. Why would you alter it to a different system completely when you don't need to?

It works great in solo scenarios. It works great in base game scenarios. Ain't broke, don't break it.

But all this said, it's irrelevant. The random spent check system is not official, but a house rule. Your house can have your rules. Mine can have mine. The sweetness of the set chits and random refresh just add a certain comfort level.

Again though, a d6 doesn't work. I think Uwe suggested a d8 or d12, have to look again.
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Russ Williams
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klkitchens wrote:
Again though, a d6 doesn't work. I think Uwe suggested a d8 or d12, have to look again.

If you find a link to wherever Uwe talked about it, please do mention it here; I don't recall seeing it.

I'm surprised if he said a d6 doesn't work. The numbers in the solo expansion cards are from 1 to 6, after all, and according to your own counter sheet file, their distribution is:

>=1 : 11 (includes 1 RECYCLE CHITS and 2 A.I. ONLY) - 20.0%
>=2 : 9 (includes 1 RECYCLE CHITS and 2 A.I. ONLY) - 16.4%
>=3 : 9 (includes 2 A.I. ONLY) - 16.4%
>=4 : 9 (includes 2 A.I. ONLY) - 16.4%
>=5 : 10 (includes 2 A.I. ONLY) - 18.2%
>=6 : 7 (includes 1 RECYCLE CHITS) - 12.7%

which is roughly 1/6 for each value from 1 to 6.

Oh, perhaps he's talking about playing the wimpy way where you don't spend your own unit on the cards/counters marked for the AI, so there would be a significant chance of no spent for human players?

But do you play that baby way? Come on, take the training wheels off!
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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russ wrote:
klkitchens wrote:
Again though, a d6 doesn't work. I think Uwe suggested a d8 or d12, have to look again.

If you find a link to wherever Uwe talked about it, please do mention it here; I don't recall seeing it.

I'm surprised if he said a d6 doesn't work. The numbers in the solo expansion cards are from 1 to 6, after all, and according to your own counter sheet file, their distribution is:

>=1 : 11 (includes 1 RECYCLE CHITS and 2 A.I. ONLY) - 20.0%
>=2 : 9 (includes 1 RECYCLE CHITS and 2 A.I. ONLY) - 16.4%
>=3 : 9 (includes 2 A.I. ONLY) - 16.4%
>=4 : 9 (includes 2 A.I. ONLY) - 16.4%
>=5 : 10 (includes 2 A.I. ONLY) - 18.2%
>=6 : 7 (includes 1 RECYCLE CHITS) - 12.7%

which is roughly 1/6 for each value from 1 to 6.

Oh, perhaps he's talking about playing the wimpy way where you don't spend your own unit on the cards/counters marked for the AI, so there would be a significant chance of no spent for human players?

But do you play that baby way? Come on, take the training wheels off!


I do not use the AI only counters when playing two-sided solo. There is no AI in the game (although some may say my intelligence is patently artificial).

I disagree that 12.7, 20.0 and 18.2 are roughly 1/6 at all. I believe those percentages are statistically significant.

I found the thread! units card based spent check

And the response:

Quote:
If you want to use dice to determine if a unit is spent, use a 1d8.
Units that take a 1AP action are spent if a 1 or 8 is rolled.
Units that take a 2AP action are spent if a 1 or 2 is rolled.
Units that take a 3AP action are spent if a 1, 2 or 3 is rolled.
and so on.

The cards work better, since the distribution of the cards is statistically correct and you cannot get any black swan runs. Ex: where you never roll a '1' on a die for 20 die roles.

- Uwe


"cards work better"

And you know the runs are more pure.

Also in that thread Gunter joins in to hint the AI only results should be included for 2P mode as well... but I still leave them out.
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Russ Williams
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klkitchens wrote:
russ wrote:
But do you play that baby way? Come on, take the training wheels off!


I do not use the AI only counters when playing two-sided solo.

Excellent!

I'd ask what you do when you play two-sided with an opponent, but AFAIK you never do that, on principle.

Quote:
I disagree that 12.7, 20.0 and 18.2 are roughly 1/6 at all. I believe those percentages are statistically significant.

Fair enough. "Roughly" is subjective.

Quote:
I found the thread! units card based spent check

Thanks for that!

Quote:
And the response:

Quote:
If you want to use dice to determine if a unit is spent, use a 1d8.
Units that take a 1AP action are spent if a 1 or 8 is rolled.
Units that take a 2AP action are spent if a 1 or 2 is rolled.
Units that take a 3AP action are spent if a 1, 2 or 3 is rolled.
and so on.

That's very weird and makes no sense. Either he's confused and just typed something off the cuff, or I'm missing something.

On a D8, the probability of rolling a 1 or 8 is equal to the probability of rolling a 1 or 2: both are 1/4.

Does that make any sense to you? Do you agree that his proposal makes a 1AP and 2AP action equally likely to be spent, both with probability 1/4?

Quote:
Quote:
The cards work better, since the distribution of the cards is statistically correct and you cannot get any black swan runs. Ex: where you never roll a '1' on a die for 20 die roles.

Actually, you still can, since there exists cards/counters with "Recycle" and not the value 1.

Quote:
And you know the runs are more pure.

Depending on what the nontechnical subjective term "pure" means... To me, independent random events seem more "pure" than dependent events drawn from a pool without replacement but with occasional random replenishment.

Quote:
Also in that thread Gunter joins in to hint the AI only results should be included for 2P mode as well... but I still leave them out.

Ah, so we are both "impure".
 
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Ben Bosmans
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Whatever. I think we can all agree on the fact that using the solo spend mechanics in 2-4 player games is what makes CoH great compared to the older system of fixed AP's.

The solo cards/chits system is also great playing both sides as you can simply jump from unit to unit and push your luck with added Caps or not.

As to the pure solo system it is to me a real breakthrough in gaming land.

I also think some AI Eastern Front solo cards need to be adapted for the upcoming SoS expansion as the number of units on the map will probably be greater than in the AtB expansion.

So fingers crossed for more upcoming solo play with more maps and overlays.


 
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Madman
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Ben_Bos wrote:
Whatever. I think we can all agree on the fact that using the solo spend mechanics in 2-4 player games is what makes CoH great compared to the older system of fixed AP's.

The solo cards/chits system is also great playing both sides as you can simply jump from unit to unit and push your luck with added Caps or not.


Observations of a newbie here so please be kind.

I thought so too until I played a few games with it, one with the cards and two with the chits. All games consisted of molasses like actions at some point in time or part of the game board with Jesse Owens flying around at others. There were VERY little middle of the road results, over 3/4 of the actions seemed extreme.

Both of my opponents disliked the experience although they both benefited the most from the results. The opponent who gained the most (turn 5 VPs gained on turn 2) was the most vocal. My forces were the closest to middle of the road and then not by much.

I like the concept of variable/unknown spent but wonder how to bring the results closer to an average effect.

Stephen
 
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Madman
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acctingman wrote:
Anyone here ever make new game boards? North Africa? Normandy?

If so, mind sharing your techniques?

Thanks!


What about enlarging the ASL/SL game boards? No end of variety. Of course as stated the issues with units and specific rules if playing those theaters pops up.

Stephen
 
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stephen m wrote:
Ben_Bos wrote:
Whatever. I think we can all agree on the fact that using the solo spend mechanics in 2-4 player games is what makes CoH great compared to the older system of fixed AP's.

The solo cards/chits system is also great playing both sides as you can simply jump from unit to unit and push your luck with added Caps or not.


Observations of a newbie here so please be kind.

I thought so too until I played a few games with it, one with the cards and two with the chits. All games consisted of molasses like actions at some point in time or part of the game board with Jesse Owens flying around at others. There were VERY little middle of the road results, over 3/4 of the actions seemed extreme.

Both of my opponents disliked the experience although they both benefited the most from the results. The opponent who gained the most (turn 5 VPs gained on turn 2) was the most vocal. My forces were the closest to middle of the road and then not by much.

I like the concept of variable/unknown spent but wonder how to bring the results closer to an average effect.

Stephen


Hi Stephen and welcome to CoH.

I am wondering if you played the chits/cards the correct way? You make an action and check the chit/card to see if the APs used have equalled or exceeded the amount on the chit/card. You don't take a chit and that is your AP count for this turn. The reason why I ask is because you said the game was either slow or fast which might suggest my thoughts. I don't know for sure but I imagine the method using the cards/chits have been calculated to be close to the 7APs used in the original game.

I am going to use the solo used method in my next game.

 
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Lewis Karl
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Stephen, I concur with the previous comments. Its sounds like you are doing something wrong. I thought you might be continuing to take actions with the same unit until it is spent. You only get one action, resulting in either spent or not spent, and then your opponent gets one action.
 
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pisqueeter wrote:
Stephen, I concur with the previous comments. Its sounds like you are doing something wrong. I thought you might be continuing to take actions with the same unit until it is spent. You only get one action, resulting in either spent or not spent, and then your opponent gets one action.


Nope, played it right one action then other guy.

What we had was it ran a lot of 1AP spent results as one guy worked up a road so very little movement before spent each round. Since he didn't want to get too spread out he was just getting about 2 hexes along each round while I was getting close to 7 APs out of each of my units. Later that game one of his units made it over 14 hexes in a round when the card draws went the other way for him.

Then in another game my opponent just kept coming up high AP spent results with the guy getting halfway through the second board with a couple group move units on the first round. I was mostly hidden and holding fire and couldn't reply as when I kept pulling 1 AP spent on my passes. The average worked out but with extremes.

And yes we recycled when called for and ignored AI only results. That was why the second game went the way it did. Most of his pulls at the start were AI only. Do you remove those when playing 1V1 or keep them in and ignore? Makes some difference.
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stephen m wrote:
pisqueeter wrote:
Stephen, I concur with the previous comments. Its sounds like you are doing something wrong. I thought you might be continuing to take actions with the same unit until it is spent. You only get one action, resulting in either spent or not spent, and then your opponent gets one action.


Nope, played it right one action then other guy.

What we had was it ran a lot of 1AP spent results as one guy worked up a road so very little movement before spent each round. Since he didn't want to get too spread out he was just getting about 2 hexes along each round while I was getting close to 7 APs out of each of my units. Later that game one of his units made it over 14 hexes in a round when the card draws went the other way for him.

Then in another game my opponent just kept coming up high AP spent results with the guy getting halfway through the second board with a couple group move units on the first round. I was mostly hidden and holding fire and couldn't reply as when I kept pulling 1 AP spent on my passes. The average worked out but with extremes.

And yes we recycled when called for and ignored AI only results. That was why the second game went the way it did. Most of his pulls at the start were AI only. Do you remove those when playing 1V1 or keep them in and ignore? Makes some difference.


Hey... glad you made the chits, I'm kinda partial to them.

I remove the AI only chits when playing the game two-sided (with no AI). If you draw them and just ignore the AI only part of things it's fine, but adds too many small AP counters IMO. In the vs. AI game with cards it balances out because the AI get a lot of Command card advantages too.

So I advise pulling those... I only included them to insure I was completely replicating the card counts, but they don't really apply with no AI.
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Although I have the solo game I have been lucky in finding a few opponents for games often enough to still play 1 vs 1. We tried the cards and chits a few times but each game seemed to give extremes as mentioned.

Thank you for the chits though.

Stephen
 
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Russ Williams
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Certainly there will be typically more variation in how much each unit gets to do when using the new style activation, instead of each unit simply getting a fixed amount of activation points as in the old style.
 
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Also, while I am more happy with the fixed AP system in 2 pl games, I have started to test out more the AP Solo system. It's still cool to have different methods for COH. As mentioned earlier you can see more extreme differences but it can be fixed some, with this little adjustment:

If a player/AI pulls a 1 AP card as his first action in a round, he is not spent.


This makes every unit a bit more dangerous and not so easily spent after just moving one hex forward.
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strategigeniet wrote:
Also, while I am more happy with the fixed AP system in 2 pl games, I have started to test out more the AP Solo system. It's still cool to have different methods for COH. As mentioned earlier you can see more extreme differences but it can be fixed some, with this little adjustment:

If a player/AI pulls a 1 AP card as the first action in a round, he is not spent.


This makes every unit a bit more dangerous and not so easily spent after just moving one hex forward.


Don't think it "fixes" anything since it's not broken... just a variant suggestion. Not a bad one, but not a necessity either.
 
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