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Gloomhaven» Forums » Rules

Subject: summoning with items rss

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Richard Ham
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so for items that create summons, i assume you have to use them on your turn, right? the FAQ says that the only restrictions on item usage is onhe card, and since these cards don't say anything about when they can be used, one would have to assume they can be used at *any* time, even say, right at the end of a round, after everybody has finished attacking, so no one can hurt them before they have a chance to defend themselves. Surely this is wrong and you have to do them during your turn, right?
 
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toeknee n
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Actually, items can only be used on your turn unless it's in reaction to something. For instance, using armor in reaction to an attack. (source)
 
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Richard Ham
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DoctaWho wrote:
Actually, items can only be used on your turn unless it's in reaction to something.

That's what I assumed, but does it say that anywhere in the rules or FAQ? i couldn't find it anywhere, but this wouldn't be the first thing i missed...
 
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toeknee n
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Click on the source link. It's directly from Isaac.
 
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Richard Ham
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DoctaWho wrote:
Click on the source link. It's directly from Isaac.

Yup, i saw it there, so i guess then it's not in the rules or FAQ
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toeknee n
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Ah, I see what you're saying. Nope, haven't seen it.

Edit: Typo.
 
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Nathan Stiles
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I'm confused with what's still a question. If the FAQ says that all items that aren't reactionary must be used during your turn, then you couldn't summon at the end of the round-- unless you were the last turn in the round, of course.
 
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Richard Ham
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SaintHax wrote:
I'm confused with what's still a question. If the FAQ says that all items that aren't reactionary must be used during your turn

The question was, do the rules or FAQ say this (they don't seem to) and if not, why not?
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Nathan Stiles
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rahdo wrote:
SaintHax wrote:
I'm confused with what's still a question. If the FAQ says that all items that aren't reactionary must be used during your turn

The question was, do the rules or FAQ say this (they don't seem to) and if not, why not?


Bottom of page 18,
Quote:
On their turn, players can use an number of items they have equipped in addition to their two ability cards.


That's how it's bolded in the rulebook. Not emphasis by me.
 
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David Tsang
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I think the original intention was to have "on your turn" on the cards explicitly, but there clearly isn't. I don't think it made it in the FAQ, but I think the intention now is assume all items must be played during your turn, unless otherwise indicated on the card.
 
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Richard Ham
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SaintHax wrote:
Bottom of page 18,
Quote:
On their turn, players can use an number of items they have equipped in addition to their two ability cards.

Yup, but saying what you can do doesn't define what you can't do. And considering the fact that there are several cards that do not indicate any restriction for when they're played, while many others do spell that out, would make it pretty clear that if they didn't specify timing, then they can be played at any time, because neither the rules nor the FAQ preclude that. In the other thread that toeknee linked to, Isaac mentioned that it's a typo when cards don't say they're restricted to being on your turn. So without that clarity, you've got weird edge cased on several item cards (including all summon cards). Hence this should really be added to the FAQ, as there's now two threads devoted to it, with players reporting that they're playing the game wrong due to this uncertainty.

Just IMO of course, YMMV
 
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Jason Winterfeld
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We had this question come up in my group and we decided that we will play it that we can use items anytime (unless the card states it specifically).

We discussed this within the group since we were at the same point as you were. And we came to this agreement.

So unless it is in the FAQ, we will be playing it as so.
 
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Richard Ham
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icechamber wrote:
We had this question come up in my group and we decided that we will play it that we can use items anytime (unless the card states it specifically).

We discussed this within the group since we were at the same point as you were. And we came to this agreement.

So unless it is in the FAQ, we will be playing it as so.

Just in case you missed it, there is a link to the other 'when can i use items' thread where Isaac did confirm all item cards can only be used on your turn. But yeah, he really should ratify that in the FAQ since i suspect most folks won't see that one post in that one thread amongst thousands...
 
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Miranda Folland
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I've just posted this in the FAQ thread hoping for an official response from Isaac. We need to know. Re: Official FAQ
 
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Tobias
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Is anybody else thinking that big games like this would benefit from a bug tracker app and version management?
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Wes Holland

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rahdo wrote:
SaintHax wrote:
Bottom of page 18,
Quote:
On their turn, players can use an number of items they have equipped in addition to their two ability cards.

Yup, but saying what you can do doesn't define what you can't do.


Sure it does.
Rule 0: You can only do something that is specified in this rulebook.

Boom, done.

(Btw, this is what's known as a 'permissive' ruleset, as opposed to a 'restrictive' ruleset. Most games use a permissive ruleset, laying out guidelines for what are valid game moves and what you do with the various pieces of the game, because trying to list all the things you can't do generally takes longer. In permissive games, 'can't' is generally assumed to be the normal case and you require to point to a rule that says you 'can' instead.

Trying to claim that because the rulebook doesn't say you can't use items except during your turn is folly, as that argument can be used for a whole host of obviously wrong things like: "The rulebook doesn't say you can't declare a scenario Complete on the first turn because you feel like it." "The rulebook doesn't say I can't use other classes' cards when deciding on my hand of cards." "The rulebook doesn't say I can't put the x2 on top of my deck after shuffling.")

Besides, that quote from the rulebook seems like a pretty good place for a spot to point to that supports 'Only use items on your turn, unless the item has some trigger condition.'
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Richard Ham
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CrushU wrote:
rahdo wrote:
SaintHax wrote:
Bottom of page 18,
Quote:
On their turn, players can use an number of items they have equipped in addition to their two ability cards.

Yup, but saying what you can do doesn't define what you can't do.


Sure it does.
Rule 0: You can only do something that is specified in this rulebook.

Boom, done.

If the cards were consistent, I'd agree, but they're not due to typos, which leads to confusion, and hence the rules (or the FAQ at the very least) need to provide more clarity to compensate.
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Jarad Bond
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CrushU wrote:
rahdo wrote:
SaintHax wrote:
Bottom of page 18,
Quote:
On their turn, players can use an number of items they have equipped in addition to their two ability cards.

Yup, but saying what you can do doesn't define what you can't do.


Sure it does.
Rule 0: You can only do something that is specified in this rulebook.

Boom, done.

The bigger problem is not that we're inventing things that are not in the rulebook. Rather, the Official FAQ (an extension of the rulebook since it is corrections and clarifications made by the designer himself) says that you can use items anytime. That constitutes explicit permission, except that has been contradicted by the designer.

This conversation was already at, "why isn't that in the FAQ?"

FAQ incorrectly wrote:
When exactly can I use an item? Can I use it in the middle of a movement or other ability?
You can use an item pretty much whenever you want, within the restrictions of what is written on the item card. So if it says "on your turn," use it any time you want on your turn, including during a movement or after you have taken all your actions. The only restriction is that if an item affects an attack (e.g. adds a bonus, adds an effect, adds advantage or disadvantage), it has to be used before an attack modifier is drawn.
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Trang VP
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In the case of summons, it may have been a space issue that it doesn't say "on your turn". I remember Isaac saying something (don't remember where) about how for items like Hide Armor he wasn't able to fit on the card that the Shield 1 only applied to a single attack, rather than the whole round.

It kind of makes more sense to me thematically that you'd summon on your turn, otherwise you'd have the situation where you can summon before your turn, which means your summon gets to have an extra turn (because its initiative is just before yours). But we haven't got a certain indication on this either way.

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