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Subject: Breakthrough - Clarification once and for all rss

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Martin Juhl
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Ok, there are several posts on this subject, but once and for all, lets have an official ruling on every possible scenario that include Breakthrough (BT).
Mr. Taylor - if you would be so kind

In all scenarios listed I attack with Triceratos (10/10) and is blocked with Palace Guard (6/8).
If nothing else occurs before damage is dealt the PG is broken and 2 BT-damage is dealt to the defending player. So far so good, but what if...?

Scenario 1.
Before PG was chosen as a blocker it has been dealt 2 damage from another champion or event card played - effectively making it now a 6/6 champ.
How much BT-damage goes through?

Scenario 2.
After PG was chosen as a blocker it is being dealt 2 damage from another champion or event card played - effectively making it now a 6/6 champ.
How much BT-damage goes through?

Scenario 3.
After PG was chosen as a blocker it is being dealt 8 damage from another champion or event card played - effectively breaking PG.
How much BT-damage goes through?

Scenario 4.
After PG was chosen as a blocker it is being banished or broken from another champion or event card played - effectively removing PG from play.
How much BT-damage goes through?

I am pretty sure these have been answered in other threats, but lets have this post with official rulings for all scenarios dealing with this subject.

Thanks.
 
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mjuhl wrote:
In all scenarios listed I attack with Triceratos (10/10) and is blocked with Palace Guard (6/8).
If nothing else occurs before damage is dealt the PG is broken and 2 BT-damage is dealt to the defending player.

Yup! Attacking breakthrough damage (10) - defending shields (8) = 2 damage to defender.

mjuhl wrote:
Scenario 1.
Before PG was chosen as a blocker it has been dealt 2 damage from another champion or event card played - effectively making it now a 6/6 champ.
How much BT-damage goes through?

Attacking breakthrough damage (10) - defending shields (8) = 2 damage to defender. It doesn't care about other damage dealt. Palace Guard is a 6/8 champion with 2 damage on it, so still has 8 defense.

mjuhl wrote:
Scenario 2.
After PG was chosen as a blocker it is being dealt 2 damage from another champion or event card played - effectively making it now a 6/6 champ.
How much BT-damage goes through?

Attacking breakthrough damage (10) - defending shields (8) = 2 damage to defender. Same reasons as above.

mjuhl wrote:
Scenario 3.
After PG was chosen as a blocker it is being dealt 8 damage from another champion or event card played - effectively breaking PG.
How much BT-damage goes through?

Attacking breakthrough damage (10) - defending shields (0) = 10 damage to defender.

mjuhl wrote:
Scenario 4.
After PG was chosen as a blocker it is being banished or broken from another champion or event card played - effectively removing PG from play.
How much BT-damage goes through?

Attacking breakthrough damage (10) - defending shields (0) = 10 damage to defender.
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Martin Juhl
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Thanks for your clarifications.
Are you 100% sure these are correct? (not that I don´t believe, just want to be certain)

Also, if I understand correct; you have to deal with the defenders total defensive value, no matter if they have taken damage beforehand, to calculate total BT-damage? Unless you deal enough damage with another champion/event to reduce their value to 0 or below, In that case all BT-damage go through. Correct?
In the example given, if you deal 1-7 damage (from another champ/event) to PG before battle damage is dealt, you have to deal with the complete 8 defensive value to calculate BT-damage (BT-damage = 2 no matter what). Whereas if you deal 8+ damage (from another champ/event) to PG before battle damage is dealt, all damage will be considered BT? (BT-damage = 10)

Again, just to be 100% certain I understand correct.

Thanks
 
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Yes. Just always follow:

Breakthrough damage = total breakthrough attack - total defender defence = damage dealt to defender.

Btw, you never reduce a champion's defense to zero. A champion's defense (outside of rare effects that actually change defence values, like +1/+1 tokens) is what it is. A champion may also have damage on it. It completely doesn't care about that, except in one case: the rule says that a champion which has equal or more damage on than its defense is broken.

If you stop thinking about this like "ok that palace guard has 8 defence but I hit it for 6, it has 2 left" and start like "it has 8 defense and 6 damage" this will make a lot more sense to you!

Breakthrough damage doesn't care about what was there 5 seconds ago. It cares about what's there, at the moment you're calculating breakthrough damage.

It doesn't care if there were like 50 human tokens blocking my 18/18 breakthrough Burrowing Wurm. Right now, coz I used Flash Fire, there's nothing blocking it. They're all dead. So all 18 goes through.

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Ian Taylor
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As usual, Greylag beat me to it.

If Greylag answers, you can take that to the bank. (Don't actually do that, because the bank tends to ask a lot of questions, such as "What's an Epic ruling?", "Do you have any bank business today?", and "Sir, could you please leave the bank?")

In the post-apocalyptic wastelands. Greylag will be the one the tribe turns to for wisdom and guidance. I would be attempting to dance for a handful of wheat. Best to not follow me.

I would also totally allow the next village to steal the fire.

I really don't know where this is going. But I am clearly not a good person...

Ian
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Martin Juhl
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Thanks for your quick replies.
Everything is clear as crystal now.
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mjuhl wrote:
Thanks for your quick replies.
Everything is clear as crystal now.

Glad to be able to help! Breakthrough is one of the two things (passing initiative during battles is the other) people have the most trouble with in Epic. The simple rule above will get you there if you apply it absolutely.
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Ian Taylor
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greylag wrote:
mjuhl wrote:
Thanks for your quick replies.
Everything is clear as crystal now.

Glad to be able to help! Breakthrough is one of the two things (passing initiative during battles is the other) people have the most trouble with in Epic. The simple rule above will get you there if you apply it absolutely.


From my experience, players familiar with "Trample" have some unlearning to do. Breakthrough is simple, but it can be confusing with two similar-not-similar game mechanics bouncing around in your brain.

Ian
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Tom Sorenson

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mjuhl wrote:
Thanks for your clarifications.
Whereas if you deal 8+ damage (from another champ/event) to PG before battle damage is dealt, all damage will be considered BT? (BT-damage = 10)


Greylag and Ian are correct, but I just wanted to address this statement to take this conversation one step further and make sure we are all on the same page (which I think we are). If multiple champions attack together, only champions with breakthrough count towards damage that "breaks through" the defending champions to the defending player.

For example, if in the above example you attacked with Triceratops (10/10 with breakthrough) together with Lurking Giant (11/11 without breakthrough) and they are blocked with Palace Guard (6/8). Lurking Giant's 11 offense would all be dealt to Palace Guard, Triceratops would deal 8 of its damage to Palace Guard, and the remaining 2 damage from Triceratops is dealt to the player.

On the other hand, say you attacked with Triceratops (10/10 with breakthrough) together with Burrowing Wurm (18/18 with breaktrhough) and they are blocked with Palace Guard (6/8). Since both Triceratops and Burrowing Wurm have breakthrough, their breakthrough offense is added together and then Palace Guard's defense is subtracted (10+18)-8 = 20 damage to the defender.

The only instance where damage from another champion matters is when that damage is non-combat damage that breaks a champion before combat damage is dealt. For instance, if you attack with Triceratops, your opponent blocks with Palace Guard, and then you expend 2 of your Hunting Raptors to deal 8 damage total to Palace Guard to break Palace Guard before combat damage, Triceratops now deals its full 10 damage to the defending player because there is no longer any champion defense blocking the Triceratops.
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Martin Juhl
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Thanks for your input Tom.
That´s exactly how I understood it as well after reading Greylags posts.

 
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Olivier D.
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Wow, I always resolved BT as trample so far.

Guess I'll have to re-read some rules.
 
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RiotOfficer wrote:
If multiple champions attack together, only champions with breakthrough count towards damage that "breaks through" the defending champions to the defending player.


Yes, this is so much easier to demonstrate visually! I have little piles of blue and red crystals at the side of my game when playing/teaching Epic. To demonstrate it visually, just hand the attacker two piles of crystals, one colour (let's say red) for breakthrough dmg, one (blue) for non-BT.

Then say: "Put enough red crystals on everything equal to its defense. You can put any leftovers on the defending player. Put the blue crystals where you like on the defending champions, but you can't put any on the defending player." Then after combat, you resolve all the crystals as points of damage.
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Ian Taylor
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"Damage already on the champion" is the major sticking point for me to get over on new Epic players that are Magic-spoiled. I have even nearly misruled on Trample because of Breakthrough-Brain.

(Source: Magic judge for 22 years this June)

Ian
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