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Subject: Brain in a Jar - Psychic Burst rss

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Brain's Overkill option is Psychic Burst - Stun all enemies on same tile or adjacent tile.

Does this

1> Stun every enemy on the tile AND EVERY adjacent tile?

2> Stun every enemy on the tile OR EVERY adjacent tile?

3> Stun every enemy on the tile OR ONE adjacent tile?

I'm assuming its 1, but the gf is literal reading it as 3. Which I can understand.
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The answers to these things can almost always be found in the rulebook, which has more detailed explanations than the summaries on the cards.

In this case it says

"Psychic Burst:
Stun all other Aliens within one tile of the affected Brain-in-a-Jar,
regardless of line of sight. The Brain-in-a-Jar that caused the Psychic
Burst is not stunned."

So every alien in the same hex as well as in every adjacent hex is stunned, except the Brain itself.
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Yeah, I found it in the back of the rulebook in the glossary of combat effects. So it was poorly wordedon the card. And it wasn't in the monster reference list under BiaJ where I checked. But sure enough it was in a separate reference list under Combat Efects. Why would I think/remember that reference list exists? The Table of Contents just says "reference lists" and every other reference list (rocketeers, aliens, rocketeer items, discovery items, thralls) is for the things that have cards or mats.
And the clear wording in the reference list would have fit just fine on the card. Just one of those things.

 
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stevelabny wrote:
Yeah, I found it in the back of the rulebook in the glossary of combat effects. So it was poorly wordedon the card.


What's on the card is a reminder/summary. The cards aren't a substitute for reading the rules, or looking things up when you see a reference.

Quote:
And it wasn't in the monster reference list under BiaJ where I checked.


Actually, it is there in the monster reference list.




Quote:
But sure enough it was in a separate reference list under Combat Efects. Why would I think/remember that reference list exists?


Well, for one thing, on Page 5 it says "Combat Effects: These are summaries of Combat Effects that the Alien can inflict on Rocketeers or that Rocketeers can inflict upon it, often from Overkill Options and Effects (see Combat Effect List, pg. 33)." It's pretty explicit that what's on the card are just summaries, not the actual rules.

Quote:
And the clear wording in the reference list would have fit just fine on the card.


The rules have a structure. More than one alien can cause Panic. Both Flames Guns and Sentinels can cause Terror. So the combat effect rules are in one place, under Combat Effects, not repeated all over the place on item lists, alien lists, or on cards - the latter approach tends to lead to errors, contradictions, and internal inconsistencies. This game does not suffer from such problems because it is logically organized. All combat effects are in one place to avoid the kind of internal contradictions a lot of games suffer from (such as the last wargame I tried, The Chaco War, which contradicted itself by having different rules for the same concept in more than one place).

Some of the combat effects do not fit nicely on the card. It makes the most sense to have the rules be the rules and the cards be reminders/references.

After having struggled with countless games that have a poor rules structure and tons of errata due to cards contradicting rules or vice versa, or rules contradicting themselves, it's quite refreshing to see how airtight this game is.
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I'm not savaging the rule book. Its pretty good as far as rulebooks go, but I explained WHY I wound up with a question. Even your picture shows that the BiaJ reference list info doesn't clarfiy Psychic Burst so I'm not sure why you're saying its there when its clearly not. The clarification only comes under combat effects.

One thing you may want to accept is that there is no perfect rulebook because different people learn differently and lookup/confirm things using different methods.

It'll be ok.
 
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stevelabny wrote:
It'll be ok.


You're welcome for answering your question.
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chuft wrote:
It's pretty explicit that what's on the card are just summaries, not the actual rules.
After having struggled with countless games that have a poor rules structure and tons of errata due to cards contradicting rules or vice versa, or rules contradicting themselves, it's quite refreshing to see how airtight this game is.


Agree, I like the rule layout in this game. But in this precise case, the rule summary on the card somehow contradicts the rules (using "or" instead of "and"). No big deal, just good to know.
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juls2 wrote:
chuft wrote:
It's pretty explicit that what's on the card are just summaries, not the actual rules.
After having struggled with countless games that have a poor rules structure and tons of errata due to cards contradicting rules or vice versa, or rules contradicting themselves, it's quite refreshing to see how airtight this game is.


Agree, I like the rule layout in this game. But in this precise case, the rule summary on the card somehow contradicts the rules (using "or" instead of "and"). No big deal, just good to know.


If I say "please pick up all oranges that are on the table or on the floor" I don't think you'd interpret it as either pick up the ones on the table, or pick up the ones on the floor. I think you'd understand it to mean, pick up all oranges in both locations.

If the card said "all enemies in one hex, either same hex as brain or adjacent" then it would be different. But it doesn't.
 
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chuft wrote:


If I say "please pick up all oranges that are on the table or on the floor" I don't think you'd interpret it as either pick up the ones on the table, or pick up the ones on the floor. I think you'd understand it to mean, pick up all oranges in both locations.


But if you were playing Magic or other strictly written games and the card said "you may pick up all oranges that are on the table or on the floor" it would absolutely be interpreted AND meant to mean one or the other.

Which is why we have rules questions about a lot of games - some board game components and/or rulebooks are written with very strict word usage, others more conversationally. There isn't always a way to tell which is which when you first get a game.
 
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chuft wrote:
If I say "please pick up all oranges that are on the table or on the floor" I don't think you'd interpret it as either pick up the ones on the table, or pick up the ones on the floor. I think you'd understand it to mean, pick up all oranges in both locations.


So essentially what you're saying is, for each orange, evaluate 'is it on the table or the floor' and if that's true then pick it up. But using this same logic, if it said 'pick up all oranges that are on the table and the floor' then you should pick up no oranges. Because when evaluating, for each orange, 'is it on the table and the floor', you will come to the conclusion that it is not both on the table and on the floor.
 
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stevelabny wrote:
chuft wrote:


If I say "please pick up all oranges that are on the table or on the floor" I don't think you'd interpret it as either pick up the ones on the table, or pick up the ones on the floor. I think you'd understand it to mean, pick up all oranges in both locations.


But if you were playing Magic or other strictly written games and the card said "you may pick up all oranges that are on the table or on the floor" it would absolutely be interpreted AND meant to mean one or the other.


Interpreted wrongly, IMO. The rule you are thinking of should say "you may pick up either all oranges on the table, or all oranges on the floor."

Quote:
Which is why we have rules questions about a lot of games - some board game components and/or rulebooks are written with very strict word usage, others more conversationally. There isn't always a way to tell which is which when you first get a game.


Fortunately, the rules in this game are very specific, and they say the info on the cards is a summary, and the rule itself is in the Combat Effects section, so we don't have to worry about whether this game uses a conversational style or not, because the effect of Psychic Burst is very clearly spelled out, quite unambiguously, in the rulebook.
 
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Jjdelanoche wrote:
chuft wrote:
If I say "please pick up all oranges that are on the table or on the floor" I don't think you'd interpret it as either pick up the ones on the table, or pick up the ones on the floor. I think you'd understand it to mean, pick up all oranges in both locations.


So essentially what you're saying is, for each orange, evaluate 'is it on the table or the floor' and if that's true then pick it up. But using this same logic, if it said 'pick up all oranges that are on the table and the floor' then you should pick up no oranges. Because when evaluating, for each orange, 'is it on the table and the floor', you will come to the conclusion that it is not both on the table and on the floor.


And that is correct, and shows the logic is correct, because in the same vein, an alien cannot be in both the same hex as the brain, and in an adjacent hex, it has to be in one or the other. So using "and" would create a situation where no aliens were affected, which is clearly not the intent. "Or" properly refers to aliens in the same hex or adjacent hexes. "Either" would refer to choosing the same hex or an adjacent hex, but not both; but that word is not present in the rule.

On the other hand, "go outside if you are wearing a green shirt and you are wearing blue pants" could apply to a lot of people, because wearing a green shirt and blue pants are not mutually exclusive conditions - unlike being on the floor and being on the table.
 
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chuft wrote:

And that is correct, and shows the logic is correct, because in the same vein, an alien cannot be in both the same hex as the brain, and in an adjacent hex, it has to be in one or the other. So using "and" would create a situation where no aliens were affected, which is clearly not the intent. "Or" properly refers to aliens in the same hex or adjacent hexes. "Either" would refer to choosing the same hex or an adjacent hex, but not both; but that word is not present in the rule.

On the other hand, "go outside if you are wearing a green shirt and you are wearing blue pants" could apply to a lot of people, because wearing a green shirt and blue pants are not mutually exclusive conditions - unlike being on the floor and being on the table.


I hope your significant other never says "Hey, Wilbur, can you wash all the dishes on the table and the counter."
 
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stevelabny wrote:
chuft wrote:

And that is correct, and shows the logic is correct, because in the same vein, an alien cannot be in both the same hex as the brain, and in an adjacent hex, it has to be in one or the other. So using "and" would create a situation where no aliens were affected, which is clearly not the intent. "Or" properly refers to aliens in the same hex or adjacent hexes. "Either" would refer to choosing the same hex or an adjacent hex, but not both; but that word is not present in the rule.

On the other hand, "go outside if you are wearing a green shirt and you are wearing blue pants" could apply to a lot of people, because wearing a green shirt and blue pants are not mutually exclusive conditions - unlike being on the floor and being on the table.


I hope your significant other never says "Hey, Wilbur, can you wash all the dishes on the table and the counter."


I would simply reply "I'd be delighted to" and then proceed to wash no dishes, since none would satisfy the criteria. laugh
 
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chuft wrote:
And that is correct, and shows the logic is correct, because in the same vein, an alien cannot be in both the same hex as the brain, and in an adjacent hex, it has to be in one or the other. So using "and" would create a situation where no aliens were affected, which is clearly not the intent. "Or" properly refers to aliens in the same hex or adjacent hexes. "Either" would refer to choosing the same hex or an adjacent hex, but not both; but that word is not present in the rule.

This does not 'show' anything. In language, it is often most convenient to not repeat yourself where possible. So saying 'pick up all oranges on the floor and the table' will very commonly be read as 'pick up all oranges on the floor and pick up all oranges on the table'.

chuft wrote:
On the other hand, "go outside if you are wearing a green shirt and you are wearing blue pants" could apply to a lot of people, because wearing a green shirt and blue pants are not mutually exclusive conditions - unlike being on the floor and being on the table.


I guess the debate is as simple as how do you bracket things and how do you add in 'unwritten' words by default, as without any bracketing, both readings of and and or are viable. This is becoming more of a discussion on language in general, though, than the actual question at hand!
 
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