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Rising Sun» Forums » General

Subject: International Backers: DO NOT LATE PLEDGE THIS GAME rss

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Vince De Zutter
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They base shipment costs on their normal box size + weight. A game with loads of mini stretch goals (like Rise of Moloch) will usually see higher shipping costs when push comes to shove.

Expect the same for Rising Sun. We're getting another full box of minis, so shipment cost will probably be double the expected amount.

This is common for miniature game kickstarters. CMON is far more disreputable on other factors (the fact that they still use crowdfunding, for example).
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Mark Bigney
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They don't pocket the 10%, Kickstarter does.
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Moshe
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You can just wait for the pledge manager and decide there, when shipping costs are final.
(I pledged 1$ to gain access to it, and can decide later accordingly)
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Rome Knows Nothing
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Starkiller wrote:
You can just wait for the pledge manager and decide there, when shipping costs are final.
(I pledged 1$ to gain access to it, and can decide later accordingly)


Me too. When is the PM opening? Im antsy.
 
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Y P
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Gyges wrote:
They don't pocket the 10%, Kickstarter does.


Was going to say the same thing. The rest of the stuff about massive shipping cost increases is certainly worth grousing about, but 10% is Kickstarter's cut that they can't refund without taking a hit, and that's something they're clear about during the campaign so you know the risks.
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Johnny H
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Pledged rising sun and world of smog, recently got charged 25+ dollars for the world of smog shipping. And i live the city right next to its manufacturing factory, where is just an hour drive away. i can myself go there and fetch my copy and it would still cost less. But i should consider lucky among all the international backers for my shipping charge is still affordable.
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David E
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Fewer and fewer Kickstarters nowadays are able to offer "free" shipping or even a guaranteed fixed shipping cost. Shipping is expensive, and it keeps getting more expensive - sometimes between the time a Kickstarter campaign begins and ends. More than a few "successful" campaigns have gone under or barely broken even because the publisher didn't adequately account for shipping costs.

I think you're seeing malice where there isn't any, and accusing CMON of deliberately and fraudulently pocketing 10% is both ignorant and unwarranted.

I know that shipping really, really sucks for international backers, but this rant was poorly directed.
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Jason Brown
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I'm not sure how this is CMON's fault, shipping rates fluctuate pretty radically from month to month with fuel prices. You can't expect them to take a loss on something they can't control. All their Kickstarters say the shipping is an estimate and it sucks that folks down under are getting hosed, but you're flinging mud in the wrong direction.
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Craig B
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The problem is that the backerkit being used seems unable to resolve your postcode to calculate shipping and instead uses the City field as a Rural/Urban or whatever thing. Where if it doesn't see one of the major cities in your country being listed under City it automatically charges you for rural shipping rates. Something which Amazon/Ebay/any other online storefront seems to have solved a long time ago.

So you need to input your address with suburb in Address Line 2 (rather than City), put your city in for City, and everything else as per normal. This changes Rise of Moloch shipping costs to my suburb (which is less than 5km from the centre of Perth) from $108 to a more reasonable $61.97 for an all-in pledge. Which is a lot (I'd say $20 too much), but not unreasonable.
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G G
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
I'm not sure how this is CMON's fault, shipping rates fluctuate pretty radically from month to month with fuel prices.


CMoN can provide a more accurate estimate toward the end of the campaign. That much is certainly their fault.
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Nostradunwhich wrote:
Maybe Gloomhaven managed to find an importer and CMON did not? That seems unlikely but could explain some of it.


Maybe CMoN doesn't care about international backers, because they don't have to. The US alone is enough to keep CMoN handsomely profitable, and they pass whatever shipping cost back, so they don't really need to work on low international rates.
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David Fleury
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I am also an international backer but in Europe our shipping costs are controlled and reasonable.

About what seems outrageous to a lot of backers I wanted to mention a few things: Shipping costs ARE expensive and difficult to control upfront, and while it makes sense to blame CMON for not displaying real estimate before the campaign ends (they could display what they expect with all SG taken into account for instance), they are not making money on the 100$ they charge to send it to you.
I know several KS that charged for instance 40$ to send a single big box to South America, that seemed already expensive for South Americans, but when they really wanted to ship the game shipping costs for the KS holder were now more than 110$ per game, sold at 50+40... so they had to pay 70$ from their pocket for each copy of the game sent to these locations.
That explains also why some comparison like 'but this other KS only charged me 35$! how can this one charge 100$!!!' are maybe missing the point that you do not really know if the other KS are not losing money on each game sent to your location.
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Phil Schmidt
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Nostradunwhich wrote:
Gloomhaven at $35 compared to $108 sounds outrageous, at least on the face of it. I must admit I do not understand that much about international shipping, but perhaps there is a fee or duty that you had to pay yourself for Gloomhaven that is being covered by CMON? I have heard some mention of such in other KS but I must admit I did not pay attention.

I know smaller companies cannot get "economies of scale" on shipping costs like Amazon or other companies that ship tons of stuff can get, but again, if Gloomhaven can do it for 1/3 the price then that just does not make any sense.

Is there any peep from CMON justifying this?

As to the "restocking" fee of $10, that is really odd also. I was going to suggest it might be the part that KS extracts from every pledge but apparently you late pledged on the PM run by CMON themselves? If CMON is running the PM then they cannot even claim it was a fee extracted by the PM company.

Given all of that, it gives CMON a Public Relations hit I hope they will address.

Edit to add: Maybe Gloomhaven managed to find an importer and CMON did not? That seems unlikely but could explain some of it.


It probably has to do with Gloomhaven's limited use of addons. I pledged for a bunch of stuff in Mythic Battles and the shipping rate went up absurdly fast. I wasn't the only one who noticed, and Monolith said it was because those costs included people sorting and boxing our orders, not just shipping. With everyone getting the same single box, you can streamline the sorting process to something much cheaper.
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Jason Miller
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One sec. Lemme find my violin.
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Becq
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I truly feel for those having to deal with international shipping. I think the in-country shipping is pretty ridiculous, but it doesn't compare to the shipping costs to places like Eastern Europe and South America.

That said, I'm not entirely convinced I understand the complaint in the top post. CMON estimated $70 for the core box, then stated that the price would increase depending on stretch goals. Considering the number of stretch goals, I'm not sure that a 50% increase in shipping costs is out of line. Would you prefer to stick with the original estimate, and get the core box only?

That said, if those AUS/NZ numbers are remotely accurate, I think that they, at least, have a very valid complaint.
 
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James Chan
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laserjudas wrote:
One sec. Lemme find my violin.


How very nice of you to play a kind tune.

That being said, yeah it tough when you later find out how much shipping is. International buyers have it tough.
 
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Note that this goes both ways - it's also expensive to ship from Europe into the US unless they specifically set up US distribution.
 
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Emils E
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CMON might have changed something but from what I recall when you Late pledge you don't have to pay anything upfront. You can only pay when everything, including shipping details are filled in. So you see the cost of the game and shipping cost before you even pay.

As for regular backers. This is a good piece of info to know and maybe anticipate.
 
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G G
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That's why you regular back at $1, so you get the updates while you decide.
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Marcin Mościcki
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Yeah, that's the main reason I stopped full-backing large campaigns in favour of a foot-in-the-door and min-maxing in the PM. Poland is often quite expensive for a EU country and often filed under ROW afterwards instead. Generally it turns out cheaper to order it to Germany AND then pay extra shipping forwarding to PL, but the extra hassle means I never bothered.

I feel a bit bad for piggybacking, but if the campaigner can't get realiatic estimates by the end of campaign, I feel all countries experiencing expensive shipping are justified. We obviously aren't a significant market enough (certainly under 10%) to focus on during very time-intensive campaign window. A bit strange, as actual online prices of retail versions don't seem to reflect it. I also happened to purchase some popular pledges of ebay with intra-EU shipping at a very reasonable premium compared to shellimg out for everything and shipping upfront.

I know of the 'AU/NZ tax' on evertyhing, but does is it in line with the cost difference on KS in your experience? Especially that not all (perhaps even a minority) of KSes are AU-friendly, which bolts on VAT (and duty?) on top of everything and shipping...

Fullfilling a large KS such as from CMON shouldn't be that much different than a regular distribution. Smaller volume, sure, but it's getting to the closest hub that matters and that can be optimised quite well with fewer links in the chain than for retail. Last leg could go through local, normal channels.
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Zoltán Dudás
Hungary
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But in CMON's case there shouldnt be such big differences between European Union countries. They have an EU distributor in the UK. All EU orders will ship from there. Inside Schengen (which UK will still be a part of) there is no extra cost per country (apart from delivery truck going x km).
Yet the section about shipping says that depending on country it can be anywhere between $15-70?! So getting it into the EU is $15, but getting it from UK to Greece for example is another $55?

That makes absolutely no sense.


Vinceness wrote:
They base shipment costs on their normal box size + weight. A game with loads of mini stretch goals (like Rise of Moloch) will usually see higher shipping costs when push comes to shove.


Except that they know beforehand roughly how many SGs will be unlocked (hence why content is withheld into SGs). So writing normal box shipping cost on a KS page where you will never get only a normal box would be foolish if done unintentionally, lying if done intentionally.
At this rate they could also indicate the cost of sending a postcard to different countries from the US.
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Vince De Zutter
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Spike225BGG wrote:
But in CMON's case there shouldnt be such big differences between European Union countries. They have an EU distributor in the UK. All EU orders will ship from there. Inside Schengen (which UK will still be a part of) there is no extra cost per country (apart from delivery truck going x km).
Yet the section about shipping says that depending on country it can be anywhere between $15-70?! So getting it into the EU is $15, but getting it from UK to Greece for example is another $55?

That makes absolutely no sense.


Well, the distributor will send them to different warehouses to be shipped to the backers. Depending on how many stops (which usually means subcontractors) and time it takes to get to the country of destination, it'll cost more. No truck from UK is driving up to Poland in a single day, they'll usually stop in Germany and then move on.

And let's not forget trucks use gas and have drivers that need to be paid. Warehouses where boxes need to be stocked need to be paid. So yes, it's very much possible that sending something from UK to Greece costs an extra 55 dollars compared to Belgium/Germany/France/UK/Netherlands. I'd even dare say it's still pretty cheap. I mean, it would probably be better to ship everything in to Germany instead of UK so it's a bit more central in the EU, but they picked UK so that's what's happening.

Expect shipping to skyrocket once the Brexit has done its thing.

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Zoltán Dudás
Hungary
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As for gas and drivers. Sure, you need those. But your package aint the only one on it. These courier companies probably optimize a lot to reduce the number of trucks needed and they probably deliver thousand of other orders each day.

Since you say that it is a valid price to get such a package from UK to Greece due to costs, lets do some math:
Take a box of 30cm x 30cm x 30 cm. thats ~0,03 m3. (Thats roughly 2 board game boxes. Lets say approx. base box + SG box)

Note a small Sprinter courier has 13 m3 place (over 400 boxes), normal trucks 90 m3 (3000 such boxes).
Taking the $50 per box, that means thats $20 000 for the Sprinter. $150 000 for the truck.

Thats a huge chunk of money per car in my opinion. Even considering that of course you can not optimize to have every single car completely full.
Heck, even if we assume every car is half empty for the majority of the distance, its still a lot of money.

------
But lets go from the other direction: Lets assume that it does indeed cost so much just to drive a car few hundred km and this is a totally reasonable price.
Then how can it be that bringing it from China to UK + paying ~30% of value price due to customs, VAT etc at Schengen border for.. $15?

------
Or if I consider that I backed a different KS project. Roughly same size and weight. NOT EU-friendly. And delivery from Singapore to my country (in Europe) is ~$50.

My main point was and still is that something doesnt really add up. Not that we can do anything about it.
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Christophe Muller de Schongor
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Spike225BGG wrote:
Or if I consider that I backed a different KS project. Roughly same size and weight. NOT EU-friendly. And delivery from Singapore to my country (in Europe) is ~$50.

My main point was and still is that something doesnt really add up. Not that we can do anything about it.

Except that CMON is from China to Germany to {anywhere in Europe}, so that is a first point. Departure is different so Tax & Customs are different.
Did you ACTUALLY already received it? My point being that EU un-friendly packages expose themselves to customs taxes, and these may add-up quickly, if you have the bad luck of being checked.
Which may be 100% the case from China.
 
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Michael R

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Spike225BGG wrote:

But lets go from the other direction: Lets assume that it does indeed cost so much just to drive a car few hundred km and this is a totally reasonable price.
Then how can it be that bringing it from China to UK + paying ~30% of value price due to customs, VAT etc at Schengen border for.. $15?


Just as a side note, there is no Schengen border between China and the UK, because the UK is not part of Schengen.
 
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