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Subject: Valuable first turn action rss

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Dan Freedman
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I seem to be finding that a particular first move is very strong, and I can't bring myself not to take it in many situations.

If the 4th neutral building (D) is:
Hire employees
Build building
Other building (depends on the building and what player's have available)

I will build the level 1 income producing hazard building in the space right before it with my first action. This seems really strong as it will generate a good chunk of money (especially if the 4th neutral is "must visit tile" like Hire).

Sure, a player can build his extra tile for hiring...but it still feels really strong to force players to go a route...all the while by earning income. It basically cordones off a neutral building for myself unless players want to pay the tax.

I believe it is the only neutral space on the board that you must go through a specific, non-neutral spot/building to reach. I'm having a good bit of success building the level 1 hazard building there on turn 1 for 2 bucks.

I think it's fair to say that other spots on the board will earn from a turn 1 build..but this spot feels like it has longer term kick depending on what shows up right after it.

Anyhow, if you haven't tried it out, give it shot and let me know what you think.
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Scott
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Yea this one is great. The building strategy I think is tougher but it's a fun one to explore with blocking and bumping forward.
 
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Fazekas Tibor
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Interesting insight.

Based on ca. 15 games I see it a bit different.

If I neglect the spaces where it truly hurts other players from the very beginning - somewhere to the main trail parallel to the hazard zone #1 and #2 - then they will do it, and on the long run they will finance the cost to get to the neutral building from that income. Plus, if I remember correctly, the building you are speaking of earns you money only for tiles in forest spaces, so one natural fit for it is the space right after the second neutral...

On the other hand, people always have to consider, how their opponents' finances will look when they get through the "tax" building. If there are many opportunities to spend all their money before, they will deliberately spend all their cash, so you won't profit from them taking that particular route.
Just my two cents.
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Dan Freedman
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Rhaul wrote:
Interesting insight.

Based on ca. 15 games I see it a bit different.

If I neglect the spaces where it truly hurts other players from the very beginning - somewhere to the main trail parallel to the hazard zone #1 and #2 - then they will do it, and on the long run they will finance the cost to get to the neutral building from that income. Plus, if I remember correctly, the building you are speaking of earns you money only for tiles in forest spaces, so one natural fit for it is the space right after the second neutral...

On the other hand, people always have to consider, how their opponents' finances will look when they get through the "tax" building. If there are many opportunities to spend all their money before, they will deliberately spend all their cash, so you won't profit from them taking that particular route.
Just my two cents.


The idea of placing your building before the 4th neutral isn't to visit it yourself, it's to earn a constant stream of money from other players throughout the game when they pass through it (hazard) to the critical building (such as Hire).

And in terms of them being broke, this isn't of concern. If they plan to Hire, they must have money going in...so you are guaranteed. Plus it makes it that much tougher for them to Hire as they need an extra 1 or 2 bucks.

I'm not saying it is game breaking (though some might argue it is)...but it can be very very good depending on that 4th neutral.

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Carmel Jones
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I'm finding buildings that cause players to pay you money are pretty much a waste of time. The odd bit of money they pay you rarely hurts them plus it rarely makes a big deal to the person getting it.
 
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Keeton Laidlaw
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babydog wrote:
I'm finding buildings that cause players to pay you money are pretty much a waste of time. The odd bit of money they pay you rarely hurts them plus it rarely makes a big deal to the person getting it.


I don't know what game you are playing, but if you can force every player that wants to use a extremely valuable tile (like the hire/build) you're gonna pull down quite a bit of cash and that will definitely open up some more options for you down the road. Passive income definitely gives you a couple extra options.

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Carmel Jones
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jesta510 wrote:
babydog wrote:
I'm finding buildings that cause players to pay you money are pretty much a waste of time. The odd bit of money they pay you rarely hurts them plus it rarely makes a big deal to the person getting it.


I don't know what game you are playing, but if you can force every player that wants to use a extremely valuable tile (like the hire/build) you're gonna pull down quite a bit of cash and that will definitely open up some more options for you down the road. Passive income definitely gives you a couple extra options.



I'm playing the same game as you.

The money is a very very minor deal and not worth worrying about.
 
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Dan Freedman
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babydog wrote:
jesta510 wrote:
babydog wrote:
I'm finding buildings that cause players to pay you money are pretty much a waste of time. The odd bit of money they pay you rarely hurts them plus it rarely makes a big deal to the person getting it.


I don't know what game you are playing, but if you can force every player that wants to use a extremely valuable tile (like the hire/build) you're gonna pull down quite a bit of cash and that will definitely open up some more options for you down the road. Passive income definitely gives you a couple extra options.



I'm playing the same game as you.

The money is a very very minor deal and not worth worrying about.


I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. The extra money is of moderate importance, but not game breaking...as there are scenarios where you might yourself have to pay your opponents. Still this is a very solid first play depending on the random tile dealt to the 4th neutral. If you are getting 3-4 extra money each time up the track, that could mean an extra cow or employee. Not to mention, if you don't get the money, it could be because you've hamstrung the plans of your opponent by leaving them a dollar short of a buy....thus they end up taking a different, less optimal, route.
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Huang Shao-Dong
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I would say it's not that sure.
(Even I had thought that before about building before 4th natural building spot.)

Because there is a strategy -- "remove cards".

This strategy's goal is to buy at least 5,4,3,3 value cattles, then remove your hand into 6 cards only, 5+4+3+3+2+2=19

and it only need buy 1 cowboy(and may add at least 1 engineer)

If you play this strategy, you can only buy once employ, and build only once or twice.

so what you said is not very hurt for this strategy, it's even better for the player play this strategy(Because it hurts other strategy really need building or hire).
 
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Dan Freedman
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ddxu2 wrote:
I would say it's not that sure.
(Even I had thought that before about building before 4th natural building spot.)

Because there is a strategy -- "remove cards".

This strategy's goal is to buy at least 5,4,3,3 value cattles, then remove your hand into 6 cards only, 5+4+3+3+2+2=19

and it only need buy 1 cowboy(and may add at least 1 engineer)

If you play this strategy, you can only buy once employ, and build only once or twice.

so what you said is not very hurt for this strategy, it's even better for the player play this strategy(Because it hurts other strategy really need building or hire).


How do you pull this off with just one engineer? You are forced back on loco to permanently discard and you must do this a lot (11 times?). Not to mention the added expense of dropping deliveries far ahead of your locomotive. The 4/5 cows you do buy arent gonna be cheap either. Granted you can funnel the "hire" money into them. It will cost 24 money just buy those 2 cows. So that is probably about a break-even with money saved on hires vs added cow expense.

Now you just have to come up with the extra cash for lost "tax" revenue on those deliveries.

It also seems hard to win if an opponent collects the majority of the station master tiles. That is likely to happen if everyone follows that strategy.
 
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Huang Shao-Dong
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Double Dan wrote:

How do you pull this off with just one engineer? You are forced back on loco to permanently discard and you must do this a lot (11 times?). Not to mention the added expense of dropping deliveries far ahead of your locomotive. The 4/5 cows you do buy arent gonna be cheap either. Granted you can funnel the "hire" money into them. It will cost 24 money just buy those 2 cows. So that is probably about a break-even with money saved on hires vs added cow expense.

Now you just have to come up with the extra cash for lost "tax" revenue on those deliveries.

It also seems hard to win if an opponent collects the majority of the station master tiles. That is likely to happen if everyone follows that strategy.


Well, it's the goal, but usually you don't need to remove that much cards, and the 4 value cattle is not necessary.
5,3,3,2,2,2,and 2(same color) and add 1 temporary/always value is also 18 value in total.(5+3+3+2+2+2+1=18)
In this case you only need to remove 10 cards, which need you do 5 times double remove cards.

And about how to push train, use the building let you pay 2 dollars to push 2 spaces, only need about push 4 spaces, you could push into the first station.
if your train is one step ahead of a station, you can remove 2 cards(back through the station), then push train 1 space(skip the station).

That's why need 1 engineer only.
 
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Dan Freedman
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ddxu2 wrote:
Double Dan wrote:

How do you pull this off with just one engineer? You are forced back on loco to permanently discard and you must do this a lot (11 times?). Not to mention the added expense of dropping deliveries far ahead of your locomotive. The 4/5 cows you do buy arent gonna be cheap either. Granted you can funnel the "hire" money into them. It will cost 24 money just buy those 2 cows. So that is probably about a break-even with money saved on hires vs added cow expense.

Now you just have to come up with the extra cash for lost "tax" revenue on those deliveries.

It also seems hard to win if an opponent collects the majority of the station master tiles. That is likely to happen if everyone follows that strategy.


Well, it's the goal, but usually you don't need to remove that much cards, and the 4 value cattle is not necessary.
5,3,3,2,2,2,and 2(same color) and add 1 temporary/always value is also 18 value in total.(5+3+3+2+2+2+1=18)
In this case you only need to remove 10 cards, which need you do 5 times double remove cards.

And about how to push train, use the building let you pay 2 dollars to push 2 spaces, only need about push 4 spaces, you could push into the first station.
if your train is one step ahead of a station, you can remove 2 cards(back through the station), then push train 1 space(skip the station).

That's why need 1 engineer only.


It seems very money intensive...to push loco forward...to place deliveries ahead of loco...to buy cows...to free up the 5 and 6 slots in your hand. You definitely want a short game to reduce the residual benefits from players w/lots of employees. This means you need extra movement too. I'm not saying its impossible. I think it's doable w/some opportunistic moves (such as grabbing a high money teepee). But there are some ways to make this hard to accomplish. I hope it works for you though! More strategies = better game IMO.
 
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Joe Rakstad
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Double Dan wrote:
I seem to be finding that a particular first move is very strong, and I can't bring myself not to take it in many situations.

If the 4th neutral building (D) is:
Hire employees
Build building
Other building (depends on the building and what player's have available)

I will build the level 1 income producing hazard building in the space right before it with my first action. This seems really strong as it will generate a good chunk of money (especially if the 4th neutral is "must visit tile" like Hire).

Sure, a player can build his extra tile for hiring...but it still feels really strong to force players to go a route...all the while by earning income. It basically cordones off a neutral building for myself unless players want to pay the tax.

I believe it is the only neutral space on the board that you must go through a specific, non-neutral spot/building to reach. I'm having a good bit of success building the level 1 hazard building there on turn 1 for 2 bucks.

I think it's fair to say that other spots on the board will earn from a turn 1 build..but this spot feels like it has longer term kick depending on what shows up right after it.

Anyhow, if you haven't tried it out, give it shot and let me know what you think.


It's been a while since I've played this game, but is there another side to the neutral buildings? I don't recall a neutral building that allows you to hire AND build buildings?

A - Guernsey, Hire, Hire + 2
B - Dutch Belt, Building
C - Move Train, Obj Card / Aux Action
D - Indians, Pay 2 to move train two... (can't remember completely off hand)
E - Blank Angus, Cattle Market
F - Hazard, Sell 2 like cows for 4
G - Move Train, Double Aux Action.

Did I miss something?
 
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Dan Freedman
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joepunman wrote:


It's been a while since I've played this game, but is there another side to the neutral buildings? I don't recall a neutral building that allows you to hire AND build buildings?

A - Guernsey, Hire, Hire + 2
B - Dutch Belt, Building
C - Move Train, Obj Card / Aux Action
D - Indians, Pay 2 to move train two... (can't remember completely off hand)
E - Blank Angus, Cattle Market
F - Hazard, Sell 2 like cows for 4
G - Move Train, Double Aux Action.

Did I miss something?


No, they are separate buildings. The scenario doesn't come up that often, but when it does, it is a very solid play IMO.
 
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Joe Rakstad
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Gotcha, that was an OR, not an AND.

I haven't played this enough to randomize the buildings yet. I'm looking forward to trying that once.
 
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Stuart Boston
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I've seen this once or twice, that is a player putting a "tax" building in front of the hire building.

If you accept the premise that usually there are 2 really strong neutral buildings that other players don't have access to: Hire new employees (Well 5a does give you this, but it's a level 3 building) & build buildings.

You can have a viable non-building strategy, but I've yet to see a strong win from someone who doesn't have more than the starting cattle.

So dropping an early "tax" building in front of the hire spot does force other players to pay an additional cost to access the building. This may be "small" change near the end of the game, but at the start, denying someone access to hire an employee or reduce what they can buy, is a strong starting move.

This game is often about edges, and this strategy can give you an early one.
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V Vendetta
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I'm trying to see if I can develop something that doesn't require cows. But a toll building before the "hiring neutral building" WOULD be probably one of the strongest counters to it (but to have it really effective you need it to fall on the neutral space D or you need it to be beside a heavy hazard path - which is also a bit rare). The neutral building to build buildings (hah) is a lot less strong, but still will give you some cache (maybe not game changing cache, tho), the same can be said about the cow buying neutral building.

For a builder-ish strategy those considerations can be pretty much a make it or break it situation (specially if you are not rushing a specific building, building a lot instead - which depends on the game pace).
 
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