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Subject: How does Line of sight / LOS work? rss

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Thilo M.
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Hi,

my current understanding is: a monster can see anyone regardless along the main axes unless they are behing a wall / door, regardless of shadow mode.

Furthermore they can see everyone else that is in a light zone, even behind walls.

They will walk towards the highest XP guy they can see. If they cannot see anyone, they will walk towards the exit.

Is that it? It seems kind of hard to hide from the bad guys...
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Jorgen Peddersen
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I think you're confusing LoS with routing.

In any case, here's how it works in the WIP rules (which may not reflecet the final rules).

When determining Line of Sight, Monsters see only along the main axes until a wall or door. They can see Heroes in those spaces unless the Hero is in a Shadow Zone and is in Shadow Mode. They can see Heroes in their own Zone regardless of Shadow Mode.

Line of Sight is used during movement as follows:

1: Monsters look for all Heroes in Line of Sight. For anyone they see, remove their Shadow Mode token if they have one.
2: Now take into account the entire board and determine the Hero not in Shadow Mode with the highest XP. This does not rely on being in shadows, only on if you still have your token.
3: All monsters move one space towards the chosen hero, or towards the exit if all heroes were in Shadow Mode or Defeated.
4: Monsters look for Heroes again, as in Step 1.

You then repeat those steps again for the second movement, although you can skip step 1 the second time, as you did it in step 4.

So it is possible to hide, provided you're in Shadow Mode and in a Shadow Zone. Unless you're on the path to the player with the most unspent Experience, and hence get spotted as the monsters move into your Zone, the Monsters will ignore you in their routing.

The routing is also a different mechanic to Los, but it makes use of LoS.
 
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David Doughty
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Most of what he said seems correct but now they have actually done away with shadow mode tokens. I played it at the CMON Expo and when your hero is in a shadow space they automatically are in shadow mode. Monsters don't see you if you are in this space unless they are in the same space as you.
If you are in a light space then they can see you across the board if there is a straight line.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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In that case, let's wait until the final rulebook to say for sure. It seems a lot of rules have changed since the WIP so there's not much point using it any more and while I do believe and trust you not to mislead us, David, things might have changed again since then.
 
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Taft Talbot
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During my play through of MD the rules were:

Like most CMON games nothing can see/act/shoot diagonally.
Monsters and Heroes can see/act/shoot at anything in a line from their square along four directions. Obstructions like walls/doors/end of tiles stop this. Being in the shadows does not. If you are in the shadows and shoot a monster with your bow the monster can see you.
Monsters can "see" (i.e. know the location) of any hero standing in a light zone.
If monsters cannot "see" any heroes because all are in shadow out of LOS than they will roam from their starting position toward the exit and then back toward the starting position of the heroes in the dungeon.

There is no way to enter shadow mode in a light zone. Your mini is either in a zone in shadow or it is not.
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Rockatansky Ash
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My english is far from perfect but if I understand it right making ambush is now impossible ??

Like in the trailer at 3:02 ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYUVaFZ1E0s

I hope I am not right because ambush were a great idea in the old rules.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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We don't know yet is all I can say.
 
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Eirik Johnsbråten
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TheRealTaft wrote:
If monsters cannot "see" any heroes because all are in shadow out of LOS than they will roam from their starting position toward the exit and then back toward the starting position of the heroes in the dungeon.

How do you track if the monster is heading towards the starting position or the exit?
 
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Brian

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Pyramidou wrote:
My english is far from perfect but if I understand it right making ambush is now impossible ??

Like in the trailer at 3:02 ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYUVaFZ1E0s

I hope I am not right because ambush were a great idea in the old rules.


You still can - though it's not a special sneak attack it's just a shadow mode attack. For details on how this works for melee chars I'm guessing you have to ambush them in a shadow zone.
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Doctor Bandage
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TheRealTaft wrote:
-snip-
Monsters and Heroes can see/act/shoot at anything in a line from their square along four directions. Obstructions like walls/doors/end of tiles stop this. Being in the shadows does not. If you are in the shadows and shoot a monster with your bow the monster can see you. -snip-


If you're in a shadow zone that's in a straight line from a monster and don't shoot the monster, can it still see you?

Is it essentially that monsters path to heroes in light zones, but can see anything in straight line, regardless of light/shadow zone?
 
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Paul allen
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It would be best for most of you to check out the newest gamplay video from CMON expo 2017 as the rules are very different from the kickstarter and there are many references to now outdated info.
Link for ease of access;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiAahg_ZLd4&t=3s


From it you can assume LOS is not affected by shadow mode in other words even if you are in shadow mode you can still be seen according to zcide los(think darkvision in dnd) it may be possible that if no aggressive actrions are taken during your turn you will not be seen as long as you are not in line of sight or in the shadows...
Generally monsters will target the lightbringer with the highest xp in his/her line of sight and either move towards them in an attmept to attack (nb if they come into contact with another model they ae pinned and will attack that model) or shoot them.
BUT until the rulebook is released we dont know any more. Best bet is to watch the video and bear with Thiago as he seems like there is a lot going on lol.
 
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Doctor Bandage
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Most of us are asking because we have seen that video and obviously the rules aren't perfectly clear. A few people around BGG have played demos at the expo, so we're asking them for clarification.
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Paul allen
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DoctorBandage wrote:
Most of us are asking because we have seen that video and obviously the rules aren't perfectly clear. A few people around BGG have played demos at the expo, so we're asking them for clarification.

Yes but there were references to now out of date information. I get that people have ssen it but i was putting this here as well in case those people hadnt.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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And the video likely includes misinformation too. Again, I suggest that we simply wait for the actual rulebook before we try to determine anything.
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David Pickelsimer
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I have read through the new rule book once, so can't double check it, but what I know of line of sight is this:

1. If a figure is in line of sight to another figure it doesn't matter who is in shadow mode or not the figures can see each other.

2. If a figure is out of line of sight and in a light zone then another figure will know it is there even if it is on the other side of the map.

3. If a figure is out of line of sight and in a shadow zone then the figure is invisible to everyone on the board.

One example that I actually saw in a game was the archer shoot at the large spider and then step into a shadow zone around the corner out of line of sight. Since the spider could no longer see or sense the archer it could not retaliate.

As far as the patrols going back and forth to the starting zone and back to the exit, we never had too many mobs on the board to remember where it was going.
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Chuck Hurd
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dpickels wrote:
1. If a figure is in line of sight to another figure it doesn't matter who is in shadow mode or not the figures can see each other.

It seems there is no "mode" any longer. You are either in a dark space or you're not. If you are in a dark space nothing can take you out of any "mode" because you're not in a mode, correct?

dpickels wrote:
As far as the patrols going back and forth to the starting zone and back to the exit, we never had too many mobs on the board to remember where it was going.

I had thought/hoped this was some kind of a timing or trigger mechanism - so that you would have some urgency for not letting a mob make it to the exit. I suppose that is not the case?

 
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Thilo M.
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dpickels wrote:
I have read through the new rule book once, so can't double check it, but what I know of line of sight is this:

1. If a figure is in line of sight to another figure it doesn't matter who is in shadow mode or not the figures can see each other.

2. If a figure is out of line of sight and in a light zone then another figure will know it is there even if it is on the other side of the map.

3. If a figure is out of line of sight and in a shadow zone then the figure is invisible to everyone on the board.

One example that I actually saw in a game was the archer shoot at the large spider and then step into a shadow zone around the corner out of line of sight. Since the spider could no longer see or sense the archer it could not retaliate.

As far as the patrols going back and forth to the starting zone and back to the exit, we never had too many mobs on the board to remember where it was going.


Thanks for the answer! What I did not get from your example - did the spider see any other characters? Or more to the point - did it occur at all that everyone was hiding from at least some bad guys? It just seems very difficult. Maybe only possible if everyone hides in a room behind a door, but they also need to be on a shadow spot...

From the kickstarter, I got the impression that there would be at least some hiding and sneaking, the new rules (which seem generally much better to me) seem to reduce shadow mode to a fighting bonus.

But maybe that it is because there are so many characters around, with 1-2 characters it is probably much easier to hide which would thematically also make sense.
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Eric B
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Ya, from what I gather Shadow Mode no longer seems like it really provides any sort of hiding or sneaking past enemies. It's just a spot you can use to get a bonus or not. That's a bit of a shame because I liked the possibility of sneaking past enemies. Then again it seems like people mostly want to just engage enemies in the videos and get their loot/xp, so I am not to sure how practical shadow mode would have been for sneaking about anyways.
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Eirik Johnsbråten
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Yeah, I think it's a shame that monsters will see and attack you when you are in a shadow space, even when you haven't attacked them.
 
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Doctor Bandage
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deathleech wrote:
Ya, from what I gather Shadow Mode no longer seems like it really provides any sort of hiding or sneaking past enemies. It's just a spot you can use to get a bonus or not. That's a bit of a shame because I liked the possibility of sneaking past enemies. Then again it seems like people mostly want to just engage enemies in the videos and get their loot/xp, so I am not to sure how practical shadow mode would have been for sneaking about anyways.


From the expo descriptions floating around, it sounds like sneaking would still be useful at level 4+ when the roaming monsters increase in power. I'm not 100% on this, but it seemed like agents call in reinforcements only when the heroes have been spotted (ie: someone is on a light space somewhere on the board), so there may still be some utility to keeping to the shadows beyond the combat bonuses.

Here's hoping the shadow/light spaces are more than + Bonus/No Bonus spaces.
 
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David Pickelsimer
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GrandKhan44 wrote:

Thanks for the answer! What I did not get from your example - did the spider see any other characters? Or more to the point - did it occur at all that everyone was hiding from at least some bad guys? It just seems very difficult. Maybe only possible if everyone hides in a room behind a door, but they also need to be on a shadow spot...

From the kickstarter, I got the impression that there would be at least some hiding and sneaking, the new rules (which seem generally much better to me) seem to reduce shadow mode to a fighting bonus.

But maybe that it is because there are so many characters around, with 1-2 characters it is probably much easier to hide which would thematically also make sense.


For a retaliation the enemy will only retaliate against the character that attacked it. If it can't see or detect the attacker then it will not retaliate against anyone.

As for hiding, it would be difficult with a larger group of players. We used it some in the one Scenario 1 game we played but not a lot. I think as the maps change and get bigger there will be more spaces to hide. You could also use it to lead enemy on chases using 1-2 characters as bait. The demo game which I ran 8-10 times had only one space to hid in and that was at the entrance.
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David Pickelsimer
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Carcking wrote:
dpickels wrote:
1. If a figure is in line of sight to another figure it doesn't matter who is in shadow mode or not the figures can see each other.

It seems there is no "mode" any longer. You are either in a dark space or you're not. If you are in a dark space nothing can take you out of any "mode" because you're not in a mode, correct?

dpickels wrote:
As far as the patrols going back and forth to the starting zone and back to the exit, we never had too many mobs on the board to remember where it was going.

I had thought/hoped this was some kind of a timing or trigger mechanism - so that you would have some urgency for not letting a mob make it to the exit. I suppose that is not the case?



Right, if you are in a shadow zone you are considered in shadow mode. I am sure there are enemies that can cancel shadow mode even if you are in a shadow space and I know there are abilities and equipment that can give you shadow mode even when in a light space.

It may be in some scenarios. But the base mechanism is for them to keep patrolling. I didn't have a chance to read past the first scenario, but I imagine there are a lot of things they can change up with the scenarios.
 
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