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Subject: Need a comparison to Mice & Mystics to get my wife to play! rss

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N F
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Hello,

My wife and I love Mice & Mystics. I love Descent 1st ed, but she would never play that. If I can favorably compare Gloom to M&M, I think I've got a shot at her trying it out. I think she would actually enjoy it if she can look past the skeletons and stuff she will call D&D (in a negative context).

So, has anyone played both? Can you compare positives? She loves story moments, how do these compare? She likes the growing campaign going from one scenario to the next. She likes how the story lines up with each quest with a theme. She likes co-ops. She is intrigued by Pandemic Legacy, but hasn't played it. She likes the initiative track.

Anyone have positive ways to say these things are the same or better? I just need a good sales pitch to get her over the hump of her preconceived notions. She might really like it if she gives it a try.

PS-I'm aware the combat system is very different, and the game is much more complex than M&M.
 
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David Latimore
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My wife doesn't like Descent but really enjoyed Gloomhaven. It's just really fun.
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James Palmer
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Isaac got the idea for how initiative works in Gloomhaven from Mice & Mystics.

I've played Mice & Mystics as well as Gloomhaven through Tabletop Simulator. I haven't played Descent, but I've played Imperial Assault which has a similar ruleset.

I'd be interested in knowing what she doesn't like about Descent. If it's specifically the dark medieval fantasy theme, then obviously Gloomhaven is going to be something she's going to have troubles with. My wife is willing to play this with me, but even just the name "Gloomhaven" puts her off, because of it's dark undertones.

That said, the story and writing, while not as in-depth as Mice & Mystics, are still really nice, and you get to "tell your own store" in Gloomhaven more than Descent or Mice & Mystics, because of the "Choose your own adventure" aspect, as well as the personal goals, where each character has their own backstory and life goal.
 
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N F
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Felkor wrote:
I'd be interested in knowing what she doesn't like about Descent. If it's specifically the dark medieval fantasy theme, then obviously Gloomhaven is going to be something she's going to have troubles with. My wife is willing to play this with me, but even just the name "Gloomhaven" puts her off, because of it's dark undertones.


She won't even play Descent 1st ed. I think for the following reasons.

*To an outsider, too much like D&D, which has a lot of negative connotations from less nerdy people. (sorry D&D people!) It is a dungeon and it has dragons, nuff said.

*It's waayy too long. It takes us 5-10 hours to play and she would hate that.

*Looks too complicated.

She likes movies like Lord of the Rings and loved Harry Potter movies and books. She stomached watching the Merlin TV series with me. So, the theme in life doesn't bother her, but I think when it is presented in board game form, then she won't give it a shot.

So I found M&M and she loved it. The cute mice and "bedtime" story stuff got her over the hump. So, if I can say that Gloomhaven is a lot like M&M, then maybe she'll give it a try, but I would like to tell her how it is like M&M. If the game was called "MouseHaven", and I used the M&M figures for good guys and bad guys... she would jump at it. lol I might try and do that.
 
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Jacob Schoberg
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It really isn't like Mice & Mystics though.

Also, it has lots of dungeons. And dragons.

Sorry dude, think you're fighting a losing battle.
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Chris Willott
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Get her hooked on Legacy through other games first (Pandemic, Seafall, Risk), and maybe she'll just crave the next Legacy fix. It worked for my wife -- I don't think we could've jumped straight into Gloomhaven 2 years ago.
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N F
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emodiu5 wrote:
It really isn't like Mice & Mystics though.


That's kind of a continuum, isn't it though? Is it more like M&M or more like Monopoly? Is it more like M&M or is it more like Settlers of Catan?

They are similar enough to mention them in comparisons, unlike Agricola, Sorry, Ticket to Ride, and the like.

You are probably right about the losing battle though.
 
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Tim Kelly
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Both games were made on the same planet?
 
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Jeremie Miller
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I have played both, but there is more different than similar I think.

Both have miniatures on a board. Both are dungeon crawlers. Both have story segments associated with the adventures.

Mice and Mystics (I haven't played Downwood Tales so it might be different) is linear. Gloomhaven has expanding options.

Mice and Mystics if you fail a scenario you have to replay it. Gloomhaven you continue on with the story.

Mice and Mystics you gain abilities. Gloomhaven you gain cards.

Mice and Mystics items do more than Gloomhaven items.

Mice and Mystics you are limited in what you can take from scenario to scenario. Gloomhaven your items are transferable fewer restrictions.

I would say Mice and Mystic is more scenarios crammed into a campaign. Gloomhaven was built with the campaign in mind.

Mice and Mystics initiative is random. Gloomhaven you can affect your initiative.

There is more character advancement in Gloomhaven than Mice and Mystics.

The two themes are super different. You can't be a bad guy in Mice and Mystics.

There are fewer options for "monsters" in Mice and Mystics.Way more options in Gloomhaven.

The biggest difference though is in the combat. Mice and Mystics is simple dice chucking affected by abilities and items. Gloomhaven is more strategic with picking tops and bottoms of cards, throwing cards away, resting, picking initiative, etc.

I can play Mice and Mystics without a ton of thought. Some of my Gloomhaven turns are super thinky with lots of mind changing before you tell everyone you are ready.

I like both games, but I think Gloomhaven is very different.

If I was going to try to sell someone on Gloomhaven from Mice and Mystics I would probably say:

It has a story like Mice and Mystics but you don't have to replay failed scenarios, and the scenarios aren't linear, you get way more choice in how the story moves forward. It has character development like Mice and Mystics but with way more options in how you tailor your character to your play style. Remember how excited you were to spend some cheese to get a new ability in Mice and Mystics, achieving new abilities in Gloomhaven is a lot more exciting, with more choices.

Remember the cute story in Mice and Mystics? Well that is going to be different, darker, and with some moral choices that will affect the outcome of the story and might make you feel bad after you make those choices.

I think a lot of the extra complexity in Gloomhaven can be mitigated if you play as a character/dungeon master and handle a lot of the upkeep. That will make it feel a bit more like Mice and Mystics complexity wise.

After second edition comes out I can tell you more as I am going to start playing Gloomhaven with my son and he has played Mice and Mystics One thing I already know is that we stopped playing Mice and Mystics because he got tired of having to replay scenarios that we lost. So from my description of Gloomhaven he is looking forward to the different system for story advancement and mission failure.

That all got a bit rambly, I hope there is something in there that helps.
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David Latimore
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In GH, the story does not move forward if you fail a scenario as the previous poster stated.
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J Mathews
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I can't speak for wives, but my daughters (11, 8, 6) have been pushing me to play Gloomhaven and they really enjoy Mice and Mystics. Playing Mice and Mystics is pretty straightforward so it is pretty easy for them to see what to do and do it with little help. They seem to enjoy Gloomhaven more (although I am not sure how much of that is just reflecting my enthusiasm) but it is like playing 4-handed solitaire to a large extent. My 11-yr old has started to make action choices, but the other two need a lot of help. We are playing the 10-quest Kickstarter campaign so the larger overworld isn't a concern. In that case, the linear campaign is welcome.
 
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Jo Bartok
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alphasquid wrote:
My wife doesn't like Descent but really enjoyed Gloomhaven. It's just really fun.


Descent 2?

Gloomhaven has no antagonist including all the drawbacks and benefits by that.

Abd it is far less about LOS.
 
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Jeremie Miller
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Interesting. I have yet to repeat a scenario that we failed...maybe the person who owns it has house ruled it?

I am not sure, but we move on to different scenarios even after losing, so I guess that is how I thought it worked, and one of the reasons I backed the second kickstarter.

If Gloomhaven requires repetition after failure I just became less enthused about receiving my copy. This is part of the game I thought was awesome.

I guess I better do more research and not count on the game of Gloomhaven I am currently participating in.

Maybe the scenarios we have failed so far are side scenarios and maybe not main story scenarios. Could that be the difference?
 
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N F
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Thanks for the very helpful replies guys.

Maybe you should read through the rules? From what I've seen on here, and in videos, and in the rules, you definitely have to replay lost scenarios. Maybe you are playing the random dungeons? Those are essentially outside of the campaign.

BTW, you might really like Downwood Tales. It has missions that send you to scenario A or B depending on what you accomplished. It also has at least one that if you win or lose you continue and the next chapter has consequences from that. Several levels let you shop and buy or sell items. And several let you keep cheese or additional items from Scenario to scenario. And there are more interesting side quests inside of each scenario, with greater consequences in later chapters.

This is why gloomhaven isn't a legacy game. It is I'm awesome campaign game that happens to have stickers. It looks a lot like descent first edition with the road to Legend expansion. Which was the greatest gaming experience ever until gloomhaven... I hope.
 
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David Latimore
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GFWD wrote:
Interesting. I have yet to repeat a scenario that we failed...maybe the person who owns it has house ruled it?

I am not sure, but we move on to different scenarios even after losing, so I guess that is how I thought it worked, and one of the reasons I backed the second kickstarter.

If Gloomhaven requires repetition after failure I just became less enthused about receiving my copy. This is part of the game I thought was awesome.

I guess I better do more research and not count on the game of Gloomhaven I am currently participating in.

Maybe the scenarios we have failed so far are side scenarios and maybe not main story scenarios. Could that be the difference?
There are so many branching paths, you could easily leave a scenario failed and go do a bunch of others instead.
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Jeff Fike
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alphasquid wrote:
GFWD wrote:
Interesting. I have yet to repeat a scenario that we failed...maybe the person who owns it has house ruled it?

I am not sure, but we move on to different scenarios even after losing, so I guess that is how I thought it worked, and one of the reasons I backed the second kickstarter.

If Gloomhaven requires repetition after failure I just became less enthused about receiving my copy. This is part of the game I thought was awesome.

I guess I better do more research and not count on the game of Gloomhaven I am currently participating in.

Maybe the scenarios we have failed so far are side scenarios and maybe not main story scenarios. Could that be the difference?
There are so many branching paths, you could easily leave a scenario failed and go do a bunch of others instead.


Not if the failed scenario is the first one, or the second, or the third or the fourt.....but, hey, somewhere in there you can certainly skip one.
 
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Jeff Fike
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emodiu5 wrote:
It really isn't like Mice & Mystics though.

Also, it has lots of dungeons. And dragons.

Sorry dude, think you're fighting a losing battle.


It's not mice and mystics. Your wife will hate this. I agree with the person I quoted above. Losing battle.

I have friends who backed this and I see them never ever getting through the campaign and don't know what they were thinking.

This game is an endurance test which requires a love for dungeon romping, small story telling, and Mage knight style decisions.

You won't be collecting cheese and handing it in for super powers on this one.
 
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alphasquid wrote:
In GH, the story does not move forward if you fail a scenario as the previous poster stated.


I feel this is an over-simplification.

When you are doing campaign missions, you are doing road events on your way to the scenario each time you start a new session. If a scenario is failed, and you return to the city, a city event can happen if you so choose, unless I'm misinformed, in which case I'd appreciate the correction.

So my sequence of events as I understand them COULD go like this: Attempting new scenario -> Road event -> Fail scenario -> Return to city -> Engage in a city event -> Re-attempting failed sceario -> Road event -> Fail, rinse and repeat.

There is also the option to attempt a different campaign scenario when / if one is failed and you return to Gloomhaven. This, to me, lends the idea to a developing narrative MUCH more so than Mice and Mystics. MaM is linear. A straight line. Gloomhaven, depending on your in-game choices and / or play time, will have a developing narrative even if you fail 6 scenarios back to back, whereas MaM you have no choice but to replay the same one that was just failed. So where MaM is linear and straight, (i.e. everyone that plays the game does the SAME thing) there are loops and curves in Gloomhaven, you can guide the narrative with choices and actual in-game events, which develops a completely unique pattern for every group.

Apologies for the wall of text, but this is something I genuinely love about this game.
 
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Editing in a quote for clarity:

GFWD wrote:
Interesting. I have yet to repeat a scenario that we failed...maybe the person who owns it has house ruled it?

I am not sure, but we move on to different scenarios even after losing, so I guess that is how I thought it worked, and one of the reasons I backed the second kickstarter.

If Gloomhaven requires repetition after failure I just became less enthused about receiving my copy. This is part of the game I thought was awesome.

I guess I better do more research and not count on the game of Gloomhaven I am currently participating in.

Maybe the scenarios we have failed so far are side scenarios and maybe not main story scenarios. Could that be the difference?


IF they are story missions, they may have been completed already by another player previously?

If not, they may have house-ruled it; if you are playing scenarios from the campaign book, and don't meet the (story) objective you don't keep checkmarks earned through combat goals or get the bonus XP, and certainly don't get the rewards and/or achievements provided by completing the scenario.

If you fail a story mission you're not supposed to move on to the next, but hey, house-rules are house-rules. Your house, your game, your group, your rules. You do you.
 
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David Latimore
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AngryByte wrote:
I feel this is an over-simplification.

When you are doing campaign missions, you are doing road events on your way to the scenario each time you start a new session. If a scenario is failed, and you return to the city, a city event can happen if you so choose, unless I'm misinformed, in which case I'd appreciate the correction.
I love the events, but I don't feel they advance the story. They do add story, and help build the world, and they're wonderful. But I was addressing a comment about the story advancing even when failing a scenario. I don't feel that events count as advancing the story.
 
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N F
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schmoo34 wrote:
It's not mice and mystics. Your wife will hate this. I agree with the person I quoted above. Losing battle.


I think some of you guys are missing the part that I said I think my wife would enjoy this if she could only get past preconceived notions. I am not under the delusion that somehow tricking her into some legally bound requirement to play 200 hours of a game that I know she will hate will be a good thing. lol

I think she might like it, but I don't think she will try it without a good sales pitch.

I like Mice & Mystics, love Mage Knight, and this game looks like a dream. Just because she likes M&M doesn't mean that she won't like this.

All I'm asking for is some good comparisons to M&M to get her excited about the game so she gives it a shot.
 
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J Mathews
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Quote:
So, has anyone played both? Can you compare positives? She loves story moments, how do these compare? She likes the growing campaign going from one scenario to the next. She likes how the story lines up with each quest with a theme. She likes co-ops. She is intrigued by Pandemic Legacy, but hasn't played it. She likes the initiative track.

Anyone have positive ways to say these things are the same or better? I just need a good sales pitch to get her over the hump of her preconceived notions. She might really like it if she gives it a try.

The tricky thing here is that I like, don't love, M&M. It's a game I got to play with my kids and introduce this style of game. So my positives of M&M is that it has an engaging story and is a simple co-op dungeon crawl. I am unsure what you mean by "story moments" but there are emergent cool moments that happen during the scenario. The story in M&M is better written but the world in GH is richer. The GH quests are pretty well designed to work with the story but are longer than M&M and have fewer interactive elements. The initiative in GH works similar to M&M but far less random. To me, the positives of GH are the deeper gameplay and, to a lesser extent, the non-standard fantasy world (no elves, dwarves, orcs, or goblins). I would suggest you show her the starting characters and see if there is anything that interests her. Maybe play a Tabletop scenario with her? Basically, the two games aren't all that similar and definitely fill different niches, IMO.
 
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Relampagos wrote:
I think some of you guys are missing the part that I said I think my wife would enjoy this if she could only get past preconceived notions. I am not under the delusion that somehow tricking her into some legally bound requirement to play 200 hours of a game that I know she will hate will be a good thing. lol

I think she might like it, but I don't think she will try it without a good sales pitch.

I like Mice & Mystics, love Mage Knight, and this game looks like a dream. Just because she likes M&M doesn't mean that she won't like this.

All I'm asking for is some good comparisons to M&M to get her excited about the game so she gives it a shot.


I don't know if this helps, but this is kind of a sideways way of convincing her to try it:
http://www.cephalofair.com/2015/01/turn-rpg-board-game-147-s...

It shows that Isaac very much liked Mice and Mystics and sought to improve upon its design by having a branching story. She might find that intriguing.
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N F
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That is an interesting link. Thanks
 
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David Arlington
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Relampagos wrote:

All I'm asking for is some good comparisons to M&M to get her excited about the game so she gives it a shot.


Have her play the Mindthief and tell her she's a cousin of the mice in M&M!

The item cards in Gloomhaven remind me of the item cards in M&M. Scenarios, maps, ongoing story. There's something to work with there.

Dave
 
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