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Subject: The Rulebook is Wrong rss

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Kris Rhodes
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It's been established in many threads and by many rulings that you cannot attack with a blitz card when you play that blitz card during your opponent's turn.

That is what I take to be the truth of the matter--the actual rule that actually governs the game.

But the rule _book_ (the one that comes with the box, including the updated one in the April PDF) disagrees. Meaning, the rulebook is mistaken.

The rule book says that during the turn sequence, when a player is ready to end his turn, the opponent can make plays. Plays are events or ambush cards. One kind of event lets you put new champions into play with blitz. (For example, one has you put a couple of demons into play and has you give them blitz.)

Okay, so it's player one's turn, player two has just put a champion into play with blitz. The champion is deploying.

So. We go read what blitz says, and it says champions with blitz can attack while deploying.

So, by the rule book, the opposing player is able to attack during the current player's turn in a situation.

Now I have seen that many people respond to this by saying things like "The turn sequence never indicates that the opposing player can attack during the current player's turn," but what I am pointing out (and others have) is that the turn sequence doesn't _have_ to indicate that in order for it to be true. The turn sequence also doesn't indicate that loyalty cards exercise a certain power when the player shows two like-suited cards. That doesn't mean it's not true. Lots of things are true that aren't indicated on page 11 of the rulebook!

The rulebook taken as a whole logically implies that in some sitautions a player can attack during the other player's turn. (A funny case is when you have battle phases _within battle phases_. Yes, this is allowed, by a clear reading, by the rules as written, at least in the insert and the April PDF.)

We played two entire games this way before I finally got frustrated by the weirdness and started looking up threads etc.

The rulebook needs to be changed. It's simple enough: Just add a bit to the text for "blitz" clarifying that blitz lets a champion use expend powers during deployment, and _attack_ during deployment if it is that player's turn.
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Speusippus wrote:
Okay, so it's player one's turn, player two has just put a champion into play with blitz. The champion is deploying.

So. We go read what blitz says, and it says champions with blitz can attack while deploying.

So, by the rule book, the opposing player is able to attack during the current player's turn in a situation.

This is an interesting interpretation of the rules and one that I had not considered until now. The small Rule Book insert that comes with the game tells you that you can declare as many Battle Phases during the main part of your turn as you like, and what happens once you attack. However, it's true that it does not explicitly say you can only attack during your turn.

Given this and that Blitz is explained as;

"Blitz champions may attack and use expend powers while deploying."

You could certainly interpret this to mean you can attack even if it's not your turn. The small Rules Book insert has no input on this question. Luckily there is a more detailed and robust resource called the Complete Rules (http://www.epiccardgame.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/EpicC...) which does have something to say on this issue.

Declare Attackers
4.4.1 Players may only attack on their own turn.

I agree that the small Rules Book insert that comes with the game is less than ideal to support a proper understanding of the game. I remember getting my hands on the game for the first time and feeling unsure of the rules after studying this little rule book. I eagerly awaited the publication of the Complete Rules and went through it very deliberately when it first came out. That was possibly the time when I experienced the most growth as a player.

Unfortunately, new players in general might not know that the Complete Rules resource exists. They also might not want to invest the time to read through and understand it in it's entirety. That's why I believe the best way for new players to learn Epic is with somebody who already understands the rules. Experienced players can efficiently point new players in the right direction when it comes to the various interpretations that can be made from the Rule Book insert.

I agree that it would be nice to have an updated rules book. It could be modified and included in the next large set when it is released. Realistically, there is only so much information that can be added with the limited space in the box that carries the rule book and cards. However, you make a great point on this specific interpretation and the empty space already in the insert could easily be filled by changing;

"Blitz champions may attack and use expend powers while deploying."

To read;

"Blitz champions may attack (only on your turn) and use expend powers while deploying."


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Chris Tumbarello
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Yeah, the rule book leaves a lot to be desired. I got most of my experience with the rules through YouTube play throughs. Those helped a lot.

But even the tiny book states the other player (non turn player) can only play events or ambush cards on their turn, thereby saying non-turn character never attacks.

Blitz isn't the same as ambush.
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Kris Rhodes
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tumby1974 wrote:
Yeah, the rule book leaves a lot to be desired. I got most of my experience with the rules through YouTube play throughs. Those helped a lot.

But even the tiny book states the other player (non turn player) can only play events or ambush cards on their turn, thereby saying non-turn character never attacks.

Blitz isn't the same as ambush.


Right, but saying you can only play events or ambush cards doesn't imply that the non-turn player never attacks, since some ambush cards have blitz and blitz says you can attack while deploying.

But in any case I know what the actual rule is now, and that's good! I'll check out those complete rules but man I can understand why they don't even mention them in the insert! Any even sort of casual player will immediately decide they're in over their head.
 
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Chris Tumbarello
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I came into Epic with no experience with Magic the Gathering, and my only other "similar" game was Star Realms (which isn't really that similar).

I had no idea how to play Epic after reading the instructions. I still had no idea how to play it after watching the official WWG YouTube instructional videos. I had to watch several play through videos from players to see how this actually worked. Now, it makes sense, but a month ago I was lost. If you only go with the rule book from the game box, you'd be hard pressed to play a correct game.

Also, if you check in the files section, there are a few downloads that show the turn structure that help out a bit too.
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Ondřej Placzek
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My experience with the rulebook has been the exact opposite to what you (and plenty of other people) describe. Everything felt explained and came to me naturally, even though I never played a similar game (i. e. MtG).

When I tried to explain the game to my brother using similar explanation structure as the rulebook does, I ran into a problem - he did not get it and still tried to 'work around' the rules, in a similar way you did in the OP.

I thought about it for some time and came to an interesting conclusion - the reason I (and plenty of my friends) have no problem understanding the rules is that... we are all lawyers! Or law student. Same difference.

If you are used to reading laws and statutes and taking note of the things that are NOT stated as well as of the ones that are, you come to the correct interpretation pretty much all the time.

Now, I am not saying that you should be forced to be a lawyer to understand rules of a specific game, I just wanted to share this thought with you because I (and my friends) found it kind of funny.
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TheNimral wrote:
I thought about it for some time and came to an interesting conclusion - the reason I (and plenty of my friends) have no problem understanding the rules is that... we are all lawyers! Or law student. Same difference.

If you are used to reading laws and statutes and taking note of the things that are NOT stated as well as of the ones that are, you come to the correct interpretation pretty much all the time.

Now, I am not saying that you should be forced to be a lawyer to understand rules of a specific game, I just wanted to share this thought with you because I (and my friends) found it kind of funny.


I would call the original poster a rules lawyer, so I guess being a law lawyer makes you a bad rules lawyer.
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I suppose if White Wizard puts out a box set similar to the Colony Wars expansion for Star Realms, that would be a good time to update the rulebook with a revised edition.
 
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Kris Rhodes
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TheNimral wrote:
My experience with the rulebook has been the exact opposite to what you (and plenty of other people) describe. Everything felt explained and came to me naturally, even though I never played a similar game (i. e. MtG).

When I tried to explain the game to my brother using similar explanation structure as the rulebook does, I ran into a problem - he did not get it and still tried to 'work around' the rules, in a similar way you did in the OP.

I thought about it for some time and came to an interesting conclusion - the reason I (and plenty of my friends) have no problem understanding the rules is that... we are all lawyers! Or law student. Same difference.

If you are used to reading laws and statutes and taking note of the things that are NOT stated as well as of the ones that are, you come to the correct interpretation pretty much all the time.

Now, I am not saying that you should be forced to be a lawyer to understand rules of a specific game, I just wanted to share this thought with you because I (and my friends) found it kind of funny.


I am sorry to disagree in a way that might come across as a bit pointed (I promise I don't feel pointed) but while I'm not a lawyer, I am a professional analytic philosopher who has a natural affinity for things like logic and coding, and I would say the reason I read the rule book the way I did was precisely _because_ of this. I am following what the rule book says to its logical implications.

However, maybe I am not a hundred percent disagreeing, because maybe as a lawyer (I don't know this, I'm speculating) you have the advantage of not just being logical but also knowing what kinds of rules/laws people _really do make_ and how they _actually intend them to play out_. Whereas, a more pure logic guy like myself has been habituated into reading documents with a view towards shutting out all thought of what the author intended and instead asking what the document itself actually says.

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Ondřej Placzek
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Speusippus wrote:

I am sorry to disagree in a way that might come across as a bit pointed (I promise I don't feel pointed) but...


None offence given, none taken! Also, by suggesting it might be my field of study I by no means meant to offend you or suggest you're unable to understand the written text.

As to the reason you suggest, I don't think that's the case, though. At least here in the Czech Republic the lawmaker's intentions are almost always irrelevant and what matters is only the text of the statute.

I think the cause might be the fact that in legal acts there is a certain hierarchy and set of rules or arguments that tell you how to apply the laws, e.g. lex specialis derogat legi generali or argumentum a maiori ad minus, that seems to help me with understanding of the rulebook.

But again, I agree that the rules should probably be more eloquent and explain themselves in more details.
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Silver Bowen
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Speusippus wrote:
I would say the reason I read the rule book the way I did was precisely _because_ of this. I am following what the rule book says to its logical implications.


This is your problem. Only what is actually written is the rules. Implications are not rules and are usually misleading or flat-out wrong. Only explications count (if explication is even a word).

The rulebook says you may attack during step 3 of your turn (p11, actually "Step 3: play cards ... and/or attack as much as you'd like."). Deploying means the champion hasn't yet been in play at the start of your turn. Blitz means a champion can attack while deploying. Ergo, a champion with Blitz can be cast on your turn and attack during step 3, when you (the phasing player) may attack. No literal reading of this supports the non-phasing player getting a step 3 on the phasing player's turn, any more than they would somehow get a step 1, 2 or 4.
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Kris Rhodes
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silverbowen wrote:
Speusippus wrote:
I would say the reason I read the rule book the way I did was precisely _because_ of this. I am following what the rule book says to its logical implications.


This is your problem. Only what is actually written is the rules. Implications are not rules and are usually misleading or flat-out wrong. Only explications count (if explication is even a word).

The rulebook says you may attack during step 3 of your turn (p11, actually "Step 3: play cards ... and/or attack as much as you'd like."). Deploying means the champion hasn't yet been in play at the start of your turn. Blitz means a champion can attack while deploying. Ergo, a champion with Blitz can be cast on your turn and attack during step 3, when you (the phasing player) may attack. No literal reading of this supports the non-phasing player getting a step 3 on the phasing player's turn, any more than they would somehow get a step 1, 2 or 4.


What you're saying only works if it's true that a player may _only_ attack during step 3 of the turn sequence. While that is in fact _true_, it is not stated in the rulebook--hence, the rulebook ends up allowing for something that's not actually allowed.

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Spencer S
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Speusippus wrote:
silverbowen wrote:
Speusippus wrote:
I would say the reason I read the rule book the way I did was precisely _because_ of this. I am following what the rule book says to its logical implications.


This is your problem. Only what is actually written is the rules. Implications are not rules and are usually misleading or flat-out wrong. Only explications count (if explication is even a word).

The rulebook says you may attack during step 3 of your turn (p11, actually "Step 3: play cards ... and/or attack as much as you'd like."). Deploying means the champion hasn't yet been in play at the start of your turn. Blitz means a champion can attack while deploying. Ergo, a champion with Blitz can be cast on your turn and attack during step 3, when you (the phasing player) may attack. No literal reading of this supports the non-phasing player getting a step 3 on the phasing player's turn, any more than they would somehow get a step 1, 2 or 4.


What you're saying only works if it's true that a player may _only_ attack during step 3 of the turn sequence. While that is in fact _true_, it is not stated in the rulebook--hence, the rulebook ends up allowing for something that's not actually allowed.



Actually, the Rulebook does state very clearly:

MAIN PHASE
Make as many plays and/or declare as many Battle Phases (page 12) as you’d like.
When you are done, announce that you want to end your turn. The other player gains initiative and may make any number of plays, then pass
.

Now, if the above said the nonturn player may make plays AND battlephases, I could understand the argument.

Silver Bowen has some great points as well, understanding deploying, blitz, ambush, and turn sequencing. I don't think it takes a lawyer or analytic philosopher to clarify this blitz/ambush inquiry.
 
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Speusippus wrote:
What you're saying only works if it's true that a player may _only_ attack during step 3 of the turn sequence. While that is in fact _true_, it is not stated in the rulebook--hence, the rulebook ends up allowing for something that's not actually allowed.


Disclaimer: No pointyness intended by any of this discussion

Again you are making the same error. The rulebook doesn't say a player may attack during any other step. Thus, a player may not attack during any other step. The rules do not "allow for" anything, they specifically state what you can do. If they don't say you can do it, you can't. This is the purpose of rules (explication). Expecting rules to list the infinite number of things you can't do is setting your expectations (and the page count of the rule book) far too high.
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Kris Rhodes
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Would you guys agree with me that the rulebook doesn't say a player may add health to his pool?
 
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Speusippus wrote:
Would you guys agree with me that the rulebook doesn't say a player may add health to his pool?


Agreed it doesn't say "a player may add Health to his pool".

However, it does mention Playing Event Cards, POWERS, and ABILITES. Do you agree that Health IS added to a player via a Power, Ability, or Event?

The Rulebook is Right, in that it does allow for health gain.

EDIT: Not looking to offend by my comments. The links below are quick examples which demonstrate cards that provide Health gain:

http://www.epiccardgame.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/heino...
http://www.epiccardgame.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/angel...
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Speusippus wrote:
Would you guys agree with me that the rulebook doesn't say a player may add health to his pool?


No, but it is a card telling you to gain health and (implicitly) telling you to do so right now. Cards override rules, so the card is explicitly telling you to disregard the lack of a rule about when you can gain life.

Blitz does not tell you to attack with the champion, that you get an additional attack phase, or that you can attack when it is not your turn. It says nothing about what phases you are allowed to attack in, just that you can disregard the rules about deploying.
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Kris Rhodes
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Suspence wrote:
Speusippus wrote:
Would you guys agree with me that the rulebook doesn't say a player may add health to his pool?


Agreed it doesn't say "a player may add Health to his pool".

However, it does mention Playing Event Cards, POWERS, and ABILITES. Do you agree that Health IS added to a player via a Power, Ability, or Event?


You're arguing, just like me, that the rulebook doesn't _say_ X, but does _imply_ X. What is permissible isn't just what is written, but also what's implied. Right?

That's all I'm saying. The rulebook implies that attacks can happen during the other player's turn, in the same way that it implies that players can gain health at some points during the game.

Quote:


EDIT: Not looking to offend by my comments.


Not at all
 
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Spencer S
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I knew that's ^^^^ where you were headed lol

Your OP and the question about blitz champions continues to misquote the Rulebook though.

MAIN PHASE
Make as many plays and/or declare as many Battle Phases (page 12) as you’d like.
When you are done, announce that you want to end your turn. The other player gains initiative and may make any number of plays, then pass.


It may not write out "players can gain Health" but it certainly DOES write out that the other player can make plays, not plays AND Battle phases.

If blitz says a champion can attack and use powers while deploying, it can do that. However, unlike the Health gain comparison, the rules don't imply when you can declare a battle phases(attack), they literally say it. So comparing to Health gain would not help the point you are making.
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Kris Rhodes
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Suspence wrote:
I knew that's ^^^^ where you were headed lol

Your OP and the question about blitz champions continues to misquote the Rulebook though.

MAIN PHASE
Make as many plays and/or declare as many Battle Phases (page 12) as you’d like.
When you are done, announce that you want to end your turn. The other player gains initiative and may make any number of plays, then pass.


It may not write out "players can gain Health" but it certainly DOES write out that the other player can make plays, not plays AND Battle phases.

If blitz says a champion can attack and use powers while deploying, it can do that. However, unlike the Health gain comparison, the rules don't imply when you can declare a battle phases(attack), they literally say it. So comparing to Health gain would not help the point you are making.


I'm not misquoting it, it's just that you and I are understanding it differently. I'd even stipulate that though the rule we're talking about doesn't say _or even logically imply_ that the second player can initiate battle phases, it certainly "conversationally" or "pragmatically" implies it. (I.e., a proficient reader has to ask why they didn't mention battle phases in the second instance and naturally concludes they must have intended to exclude battle phases from what the second player is allowed to do.)

But as we know, cards can "break" the rulebook rules, and some cards say blitz, and blitz means can attack while deploying, and if you make a play using an ambush card that says blitz, it is deploying, no matter who's turn it is. Hence, the "blitz" term on the card "breaks" (so to speak) any rulebook rule that says or implies second player can't initiate battle phases.
 
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Leigh Ryan
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Speusippus wrote:
...some cards say blitz, and blitz means can attack while deploying

Not necessarily, no. A subtle but important difference: the in-box (April 2017) rules say "Blitz champions may attack and use powers while deploying", expanded upon in the Complete Rules to say "5.8.1 Blitz means: 'Ignore all deploying restrictions that would apply to this card.'".

So while Blitz cards may attack because they "ignore all deploying restrictions", it doesn't necessarily mean they're able to take advantage of this freedom, because they might not be played at a time when you're able to initiate an attack... such as when you're unable to declare a Battle Phase.

"Can" and "May" are often used interchangeably in conversational English, but they're by no means synonymous when it comes to game rules (or the law, as it turns out).
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LineOf7s wrote:
Speusippus wrote:
...some cards say blitz, and blitz means can attack while deploying

Not necessarily, no. A subtle but important difference: the in-box (April 2017) rules say "Blitz champions may attack and use powers while deploying", expanded upon in the Complete Rules to say "5.8.1 Blitz means: 'Ignore all deploying restrictions that would apply to this card.'".

So while Blitz cards may attack because they "ignore all deploying restrictions", it doesn't necessarily mean they're able to take advantage of this freedom, because they might not be played at a time when you're able to initiate an attack... such as when you're unable to declare a Battle Phase.

"Can" and "May" are often used interchangeably in conversational English, but they're by no means synonymous when it comes to game rules (or the law, as it turns out).


^^ this guy gets it If you are going to refer to the rules in matters of attacking, I would again remind you that the OP is incorrectly stating them (by categorizing PLAYS and BATTLEPHASES as the same thing).

How is blitz breaking the Rulebook? It's following the rules (in regards to powers and abilities). If you try to initiate a battle phase when it's not your turn, this would NOT be following the rules, as it specifically states that you can simply "make plays".

Also, with your interpretation of of the rules regarding blitz/ambush/deploying, Any non-deploying champion may attack regardless of turn!! (See the DEPLOYING section of rules insert) LUCKILY, we have a rule book which states what can and can't be done on turns and how to handle abilities/power/events.

Finally, blitz/ambush champions are still great, you can use it's expend power even if you play it on your opponents turn! Raptors, I choose you, swoop in for the kill hahaha
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Kudos, by the way, to all involved for a civil discussion. This had the potential to be a lot messier.

I'm a bit surprised no-one vaguely "official" has popped in to rule on this though (eg WWG, Greylag). But where's the fun in that?
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LineOf7s wrote:
Kudos, by the way, to all involved for a civil discussion. This had the potential to be a lot messier.

I'm a bit surprised no-one vaguely "official" has popped in to rule on this though (eg WWG, Greylag). But where's the fun in that?


This was the exact reason I decided to jump into it. No offense to the proposed rules questioning, but the rules are clearly correct and clear in this matter yet the OP built the debate upon incorrectly stating them. WWG shouldn't have to jump in on this one when their word via RULES has already spoken.

But where is our GREYLAG!?!? Lol
 
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Kris Rhodes
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LineOf7s wrote:
Speusippus wrote:
...some cards say blitz, and blitz means can attack while deploying

Not necessarily, no. A subtle but important difference: the in-box (April 2017) rules say "Blitz champions may attack and use powers while deploying", expanded upon in the Complete Rules to say "5.8.1 Blitz means: 'Ignore all deploying restrictions that would apply to this card.'".


Absolutely--my "beef" (not really a beef but) is with the rulebook, not the complete rules. I'm saying this is a clear enough implication of the rulebook version of the rules that players new to the game are likely enough to misunderstand and attack when they're not supposed to be able to attack--and many of these players won't even know about the complete rules so I think changing the rulebook is the thing to do.
 
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