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Subject: BackTalk 28 Dice Tower - Massive Darkness rss

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thiago k
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Theres the impressions from Dice Tower crew about the game (and the CMON lineup):

https://youtu.be/eRFPiRRGRKc?t=1365
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Brian

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kraisto wrote:
Theres the impressions from Dice Tower crew about the game (and the CMON lineup):

https://youtu.be/eRFPiRRGRKc?t=1365


Thanks very interesting, can't wait for July
 
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robert snow
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Poor zee got stuck for like 3 rounds. I still think ileven though it's not his kind of game, it is my kind of game.
 
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Doctor Bandage
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TL;DW:
Zee (who normally doesn't like dungeon crawlers) didn't like it.
Sam (who normally does like dungeon crawlers) liked it.
Tom hasn't played it.

I don't think Zee will change his mind much, but he may view MD slightly more favorably if he plays it again without getting beaten to hell by evil dwarves for 25 minutes with no way to defend himself.
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Brian

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snowbert87 wrote:
Poor zee got stuck for like 3 rounds. I still think ileven though it's not his kind of game, it is my kind of game.


I saw that and was thinking - I'll bet he never stays on the starting square again. Those are the kind of things once you experience them you try your hardest to NOT have that happen to you again.

This game is definitely not a carebear game even if it was changed since the KS. It's going to be a lot more punishing then Zombiecide. With 6 heroes that spider has 30 health. Just imagine if those 6 heroes are all split up...
 
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Kevin John
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Honestly Thiago should have told Zee that Whisper was a melee character to begin with and suggested a melee weapon. I know he couldn't have predicted what would happen but he should know that a character with no 'get out of zone' abilities and a ranged weapon would be doomed fairly easily.
 
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Emivaldo Sousa
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Although I think the rules have improved, I still think that if a player gets stuck without being able to do anything in a dice chucking dungeon crawler it is a design flaw.

You can get hammered and must be punished for your mistakes (or just punished randomly for that matter), but skip your turn is something that should never happen.
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Chuck Hurd
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zinho73 wrote:
Although I think the rules have improved, I still think that if a player gets stuck without being able to do anything in a dice chucking dungeon crawler it is a design flaw.

You can get hammered and must be punished for your mistakes (or just punished randomly for that matter), but skip your turn is something that should never happen.

Agree with this completely. Not sure how common it will be with experienced gamers but I think I would call it a design flaw if it happened once. There has to be some way to take your licks and keep going. I have no context for the game yet though.
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Caulet jocelyn
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Just a reminder, he could have taken slippery since turn one or two, and then he woudln't have been blocked even if he was range, but he choose not to , so it's more of a player failure than a design flaw
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Eric B
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Khanafallen wrote:
Just a reminder, he could have taken slippery since turn one or two, and then he woudln't have been blocked even if he was range, but he choose not to , so it's more of a player failure than a design flaw


Yup. This is exactly why I wish CMON would have experienced people demo Massive Darkness rather than random people. Inexperienced people can make the game look really bad due to their own unfamiliarity with it. Zee doesn't even like dungeon Crawlers! Now people are going to see the demo and be like damn, you can go several turns without being able to do anything? That's a design flaw and not fun!

Not only that, in the demo, a number of things happened in that all lead to Zee getting trapped. He went range on a predominantly melee character, he didn't get the Slippery ability early on, and he had a group of mobs ambush him. If any of these things would have been different he wouldn't have been trapped.

Granted it didn't help that of the four players, three were mainly melee characters. All the same though, the Bloodmoon Assassin CAN be a decent range class as she has the Sniper Specialist ability. you just have to properly prepare and get Slippery. The other two range classes in the core box (Battle Wizard and Nightshade Ranger), both have escape abilities as their free class skills. Rangers get Slippery for free, while Wizards get Teleport.
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Doctor Bandage
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zinho73 wrote:
Although I think the rules have improved, I still think that if a player gets stuck without being able to do anything in a dice chucking dungeon crawler it is a design flaw.

You can get hammered and must be punished for your mistakes (or just punished randomly for that matter), but skip your turn is something that should never happen.


Agreed. If the game ships with this as-is, I'll probably implement a house rule that all unarmed characters have a pity melee weapon by default. Maybe something like if both weapon slots are empty, you can use your fists with 1 yellow-die @ -1 Sword (or something, I'll need to see the dice).
 
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Emivaldo Sousa
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Khanafallen wrote:
Just a reminder, he could have taken slippery since turn one or two, and then he woudln't have been blocked even if he was range, but he choose not to , so it's more of a player failure than a design flaw


I agree that there is probably 100 ways around it. It is still a flaw because it is possible. For someone learning the game, do nothing on his/her turn gives a terrible first impression and is boring.

In cases like that, it would be cool if the weapon is sub optimal or movement more costly, passing the turn is honestly old, uninspired and boring.

If a player fails to see something, it is my opinion that the game still needs to be interesting. I think that even when you are being hammered by the game, without a chance of winning, you should still be able to do something - even it means other terrible decisions.
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Eric B
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zinho73 wrote:
Khanafallen wrote:
Just a reminder, he could have taken slippery since turn one or two, and then he woudln't have been blocked even if he was range, but he choose not to , so it's more of a player failure than a design flaw


I agree that there is probably 100 ways around it. It is still a flaw because it is possible. For someone learning the game, do nothing on his/her turn gives a terrible first impression and is boring.

In cases like that, it would be cool if the weapon is sub optimal or movement more costly, passing the turn is honestly old, uninspired and boring.

If a player fails to see something, it is my opinion that the game still needs to be interesting. I think that even when you are being hammered by the game, without a chance of winning, you should still be able to do something - even it means other terrible decisions.


In all fairness he made multiple mistakes that lead to him being unable to do anything. I mean you could just as easily trade away or transmute all of your weapons and be left with no weapon to attack. Is that also a flaw of the game? Not being able to do anything because of poor choices made?

Now if the there were multiple turns you could do nothing, and you had no power to stop it, THEN I would agree this is a game flaw. As is though, you just need to take a few cautionary steps to ensure this NEVER happens (and even then it can be avoided with some decent luck).

Personally I really like this rule that range can't attack enemies in the same space. Range would be superior in almost every way if they didn't have it in the game. It's one of the few things that helps put melee on par with range, and even then some of the other range classes have free class skills to still get them out of melee.
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Emivaldo Sousa
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deathleech wrote:
zinho73 wrote:
Khanafallen wrote:
Just a reminder, he could have taken slippery since turn one or two, and then he woudln't have been blocked even if he was range, but he choose not to , so it's more of a player failure than a design flaw


I agree that there is probably 100 ways around it. It is still a flaw because it is possible. For someone learning the game, do nothing on his/her turn gives a terrible first impression and is boring.

In cases like that, it would be cool if the weapon is sub optimal or movement more costly, passing the turn is honestly old, uninspired and boring.

If a player fails to see something, it is my opinion that the game still needs to be interesting. I think that even when you are being hammered by the game, without a chance of winning, you should still be able to do something - even it means other terrible decisions.


In all fairness he made multiple mistakes that lead to him being unable to do anything. I mean you could just as easily trade away or transmute all of your weapons and be left with no weapon to attack. Is that also a flaw of the game? Not being able to do anything because of poor choices made?

Now if the there were multiple turns you could do nothing, and you had no power to stop it, THEN I would agree this is a game flaw. As is though, you just need to take a few cautionary steps to ensure this NEVER happens (and even then it can be avoided with some decent luck).

Personally I really like this rule that range can't attack enemies in the same space. Range would be superior in almost every way if they didn't have it in the game. It's one of the few things that helps put melee on par with range, and even then some of the other range classes have free class skills to still get them out of melee.


Well, it is something common enough to happen in both available gameplay videos. So yes, I still think it is something that has to be addressed in the design.

I am guessing your example is somewhat more rare and more instantly recognizable as something risky/dumb to do. Very fringe situations are ok, but more usual ones that are easy to fix and can greatly improve a first time experience with the game, bother me.

In any case I would argue that more attention to the design would take care of even the issue you pointed out (if you had a basic weak attack - like in descent, or just a penalty to move - like in zombicide).

It is not a big issue, I still think the game will be fun and now is definitely in a much better state, but I am surprised to see this is "skip turn" thing is still there with all the revisions.
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Caulet jocelyn
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when you talk of both available video, what is the other video that you speak of ?
 
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Emivaldo Sousa
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Khanafallen wrote:
when you talk of both available video, what is the other video that you speak of ?


The kickstarter one and the one from the Dice Tower
 
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Eric B
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zinho73 wrote:
Well, it is something common enough to happen in both available gameplay videos. So yes, I still think it is something that has to be addressed in the design.


It happened in the first game play video? It's been forever since I watched it. I don't remember any players getting stuck and unable to attack. What I do remember is one of the players dying and no one reviving her for several turns. Regardless, the class abilities and game play mechanics have changed greatly from the first video so I don't think it can really be used as an example anymore.


Quote:
It is not a big issue, I still think the game will be fun and now is definitely in a much better state, but I am surprised to see this is "skip turn" thing is still there with all the revisions.


You are looking at it as a game flaw, but I think it's pretty intentional. It's meant as a sort of checks and balances for range vs melee. Range can shoot from several spots away meaning they don't have to waste actions on movement. They also can hit melee enemies without fear of retaliation, and if another hero has said enemies locked down in a zone then the enemies can't even move towards them. I think this is a nice way to balance the fact melee Heroes always have to move and be right on top of an enemy (unless they have a special skill or weapon) to attack.
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Emivaldo Sousa
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deathleech wrote:
zinho73 wrote:
Well, it is something common enough to happen in both available gameplay videos. So yes, I still think it is something that has to be addressed in the design.


It happened in the first game play video? It's been forever since I watched it. I don't remember any players getting stuck and unable to attack. What I do remember is one of the players dying and no one reviving her for several turns. Regardless, the class abilities and game play mechanics have changed greatly from the first video so I don't think it can really be used as an example anymore.


Quote:
It is not a big issue, I still think the game will be fun and now is definitely in a much better state, but I am surprised to see this is "skip turn" thing is still there with all the revisions.


You are looking at it as a game flaw, but I think it's pretty intentional. It's meant as a sort of checks and balances for range vs melee. Range can shoot from several spots away meaning they don't have to waste actions on movement. They also can hit melee enemies without fear of retaliation, and if another hero has said enemies locked down in a zone then the enemies can't even move towards them. I think this is a nice way to balance the fact melee Heroes always have to move and be right on top of an enemy (unless they have a special skill or weapon) to attack.


Yeah. In the video she couldn't move nor shoot, then died, then could do nothing and died again (or something like that. It was three or four turns of doing nothing). I think it is still relevant because it can still happen (maybe less because of abilities tweaking, but still...).

Balancing the game is a must and you are right in your analysis, but my point is that it can be done in a more fun, more interesting, less dated way.

Imagine in a six player game, you have to wait your turn and when it happens you do nothing, next turn you are dead and cannot do nothing again, you are resurrected but still can't do anything because there is still a monster there.

I know the rule is there to differentiate melee from ranged. I just think it is a poor, flawed way of doing it.

I also know it is a minor thing because fans of the game will work around it easily or house rule it away, but to me it is the design equivalent of taking a bath and not washing your feet because you are going to use shoes anyway. You just don't do that

gulp
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Mr Suitcase
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I don't know. That's like saying, we played Ticket to Ride. And one guy just chose to draw cards over and over again, and never laid down a track. Then when it was near the end, when he realized he had to lay down a track to get points he couldn't, because they were already taken!

Must be a flaw in the game.

Or... the person explaining the rules didn't explain that you've got to lay down tracks to get points.
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Doctor Bandage
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mrsuitcase wrote:
I don't know. That's like saying, we played Ticket to Ride. And one guy just chose to draw cards over and over again, and never laid down a track. Then when it was near the end, when he realized he had to lay down a track to get points he couldn't, because they were already taken!

Must be a flaw in the game.

Or... the person explaining the rules didn't explain that you've got to lay down tracks to get points.


This is a terrible analogy. The player drawing cards is still getting to take a turn (and do something on that turn), even if their action is not conducive to winning.

Zee got to do literally nothing for several rounds.
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Graydon Randol
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zinho73 wrote:
deathleech wrote:
zinho73 wrote:
Well, it is something common enough to happen in both available gameplay videos. So yes, I still think it is something that has to be addressed in the design.


It happened in the first game play video? It's been forever since I watched it. I don't remember any players getting stuck and unable to attack. What I do remember is one of the players dying and no one reviving her for several turns. Regardless, the class abilities and game play mechanics have changed greatly from the first video so I don't think it can really be used as an example anymore.


Quote:
It is not a big issue, I still think the game will be fun and now is definitely in a much better state, but I am surprised to see this is "skip turn" thing is still there with all the revisions.


You are looking at it as a game flaw, but I think it's pretty intentional. It's meant as a sort of checks and balances for range vs melee. Range can shoot from several spots away meaning they don't have to waste actions on movement. They also can hit melee enemies without fear of retaliation, and if another hero has said enemies locked down in a zone then the enemies can't even move towards them. I think this is a nice way to balance the fact melee Heroes always have to move and be right on top of an enemy (unless they have a special skill or weapon) to attack.


Yeah. In the video she couldn't move nor shoot, then died, then could do nothing and died again (or something like that. It was three or four turns of doing nothing). I think it is still relevant because it can still happen (maybe less because of abilities tweaking, but still...).

Balancing the game is a must and you are right in your analysis, but my point is that it can be done in a more fun, more interesting, less dated way.

Imagine in a six player game, you have to wait your turn and when it happens you do nothing, next turn you are dead and cannot do nothing again, you are resurrected but still can't do anything because there is still a monster there.

I know the rule is there to differentiate melee from ranged. I just think it is a poor, flawed way of doing it.

I also know it is a minor thing because fans of the game will work around it easily or house rule it away, but to me it is the design equivalent of taking a bath and not washing your feet because you are going to use shoes anyway. You just don't do that

gulp

just cause part of a game is hard or tough doesn't mean it's broken Zee clearly brought that upon himself and could have been avoided a 100 different ways. I would much rather have a challenging game and yall noobs complain it being broken then a "working" game but I just walk through it. Glad it takes some thinking and strategy to win.
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The Bat
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zinho73 wrote:
deathleech wrote:
zinho73 wrote:
Well, it is something common enough to happen in both available gameplay videos. So yes, I still think it is something that has to be addressed in the design.


It happened in the first game play video? It's been forever since I watched it. I don't remember any players getting stuck and unable to attack. What I do remember is one of the players dying and no one reviving her for several turns. Regardless, the class abilities and game play mechanics have changed greatly from the first video so I don't think it can really be used as an example anymore.


Quote:
It is not a big issue, I still think the game will be fun and now is definitely in a much better state, but I am surprised to see this is "skip turn" thing is still there with all the revisions.


You are looking at it as a game flaw, but I think it's pretty intentional. It's meant as a sort of checks and balances for range vs melee. Range can shoot from several spots away meaning they don't have to waste actions on movement. They also can hit melee enemies without fear of retaliation, and if another hero has said enemies locked down in a zone then the enemies can't even move towards them. I think this is a nice way to balance the fact melee Heroes always have to move and be right on top of an enemy (unless they have a special skill or weapon) to attack.


Yeah. In the video she couldn't move nor shoot, then died, then could do nothing and died again (or something like that. It was three or four turns of doing nothing). I think it is still relevant because it can still happen (maybe less because of abilities tweaking, but still...).

Balancing the game is a must and you are right in your analysis, but my point is that it can be done in a more fun, more interesting, less dated way.

Imagine in a six player game, you have to wait your turn and when it happens you do nothing, next turn you are dead and cannot do nothing again, you are resurrected but still can't do anything because there is still a monster there.

I know the rule is there to differentiate melee from ranged. I just think it is a poor, flawed way of doing it.

I also know it is a minor thing because fans of the game will work around it easily or house rule it away, but to me it is the design equivalent of taking a bath and not washing your feet because you are going to use shoes anyway. You just don't do that

:gulp:


It sounds like you are wishing it was a game where it was impossible for a player to make a mistake that could cost them an action or turn. I'm not sure there are many games like that. In my experience the best course of action for a situation like that is to learn from your mistakes (or others) and improve your game rather than blaming the game itself for allowing you to make a mistake.
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David Pickelsimer
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In my plays I realized how much you have to work together and know your characters role. If you think about Zombicide splitting the party up and not supporting each other leads to players getting picked off one by one. In both examples of the play through videos tactical errors were made by the players.

In the old video, the archer ran ahead of the party and in the way of all the monsters moving toward the party. It was clear she was going to become engaged where she left her character.

In the Dicetower video, it was clear the players didn't know where things spawn. Enemy always spawn in rooms, on the number of the level and occasionally on a character opening a door. These are spots that range and magic characters nee to avoid.

In general melee characters should tie up the enemy to let the range and magic characters do their work. At least keep melee characters close to change weapons if worse comes to worse.
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Brian

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dpickels wrote:
In my plays I realized how much you have to work together and know your characters role. If you think about Zombicide splitting the party up and not supporting each other leads to players getting picked off one by one. In both examples of the play through videos tactical errors were made by the players.

In the old video, the archer ran ahead of the party and in the way of all the monsters moving toward the party. It was clear she was going to become engaged where she left her character.

In the Dicetower video, it was clear the players didn't know where things spawn. Enemy always spawn in rooms, on the number of the level and occasionally on a character opening a door. These are spots that range and magic characters nee to avoid.

In general melee characters should tie up the enemy to let the range and magic characters do their work. At least keep melee characters close to change weapons if worse comes to worse.


David is right, as I said before - it happened once it should never happen again if he pays attention. Also anyone watching the video will likely never make that same mistake.

In his first turn he stayed put and shot, he could have moved forward and then shot and not have been in the situation, sure he would have one less attack but that's better then being stuck if an agent spawns.
 
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There's no denying that Zee could have made better choices, but I don't think it's quite the fringe case many of you all are making it out to be. I can forsee a few times where a magic or ranged character gets caught off guard and gets accidentally stuck in melee combat either through monsters getting extra activations, events, or ambush cards. Preventative measures are fine and all, but sometimes shit happens. What if you want to play as a magic or ranged class solo? Those first few enemies will be terrible as you flee because it's game over if a melee enemy gets to you before you have time to gear or skill up.

Zee will probably never make the mistake of getting caught in melee unarmed again, but he'll probably also never play the game again because of it . Getting your turn skipped leaves a sour taste in players mouths. It's something that really should be avoided in modern game design.

Since the game revolves around monsters and heroes getting stuck in melee, I don't think it's asking too much to have a "pity melee" attack when you get caught without a melee weapon.
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