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Subject: Azyn Robot Abilities (Detonator Overload) rss

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Nate Parkes
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I've been wanting to make an Azyn build that uses "Iron Fusion Override" to bypass the necessity of including the Iron Fusion Stage abilities.

But the issue I've been encountering is that the other Azyn abilities (specifically Detonator Overload) seem really situational and possibly underpowered, so I'm hoping someone can explain their utility to me.

Azyn Ability Name / Power Required / Ability

Iron Fusion Stage 1! / 1 / Decrease all attack damage received by 1 while activated.

Iron Fusion Stage 2! / 2 /(Iron Fusion Stage 1! must be activated) Inflict damage +1 while activated.

Iron Fusion Stage 3 - Ayzn Black! / 3 / (Iron Fusion Stage 2! must be activated) Increase attack roll results by 1 while activated.

Detonator Overload / 2 / While Activated, if your Melee Attack card was successful, you may permanently remove it from the game to Trigger: You may spend X Power Dice to add +X damage to this attack.

Titan's Stride / 1 / While Activated, when you spend your movement, you move through and destroy Structures by receiving 2 Damage. You must always end your movement past the Structure’s hex. Do not resolve the Impact Rules on Impact Cards drawn for Structures destroyed this way.

Iron Fusion Override / - / You may receive 1 Fire to Trigger: You may play any “Ayzn Black” cards without having “Iron Fusion Stage 3-Ayzn Black” Activated, until the end of this turn.


I think Iron Fusion Override is a really cool concept. The idea that you're using moves that your robot's form literally can't handle without bursting into flame.

But Detonator Overload... First I'd need to activate it with 2 power, so the most power I could possibly have available would be 4 power. Then I have to land a melee attack, presumably without using power dice in the attack roll. Then I need to remove the card from the game AND spend 4 power in order to... increase the damage by 4?

Compared to Iron Fusion Stage 2, Detonator Overload seems really weak. Iron Fusion Stage 2 inflicts +1 damage per attack (melee or ranged) without any further expenditure power tokens, or removing a card from the game.

Am I missing something? Can somebody convince me this ability is better than it seems? Because keeping 2 power tokens locked and removing a card from the game seems like a really high price to open up a "spend a power to do +1 damage" ability.
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Steven Hammerschlag
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Re: Azyn Robot Abilities (Detonator Overload Seems Underpowered?)
I have 3 initial thoughts:

1. Arkan + Power Control + Detonator Overload, Iron Fusion Stage 1 and 2

If you activate all three robot abilities you can continue to fill up 6 power tokens. Then, spam a cheap attack or two (like Schneller Schlag) with the threat that you could burn the attack to boost it +6 damage. If your opponent burns PT to counter these spam attacks, then you'll eventually be able to swing in with a higher cost attack with a more powerful move and you'd still have your PT from rage to either (1) boost the attack dice roll or (2) boost its damage using the ability. Haven't actually tried this yet, but it's given me some ideas.

2. As any pilot, the ability helps against Takashi's Head On card. Doesn't stop it, but at least you can potentially add +6 damage for Arkan and +4 for the other pilots. I have never not hated when Head On is played when it counters strong "per success" attacks - this helps equalize the momentum swing from Takashi's double Rage gain.

3. Again, against Takashi (and I've cursed myself recently for not having this robot ability for this very reason), if he is using Honorable Defeat, this means that 11 of Ayzn's attacks that are under 4 damage can suddenly kill Takashi with as little as 3 power dice in reserve (and 2 dedicated to the ability). More in general, I view Detonator as something of a late game utility that can potentially end the game when it's down to the wire.

I agree that Detonator has much less utility throughout the entirety of a match compared to Iron Fusion 2, but Iron Detonator definitely changes the calculus of fighting Ayzn and I think there's some value in that. I'm interested to see if anyone can come up with an "Anarchy Ayzn" build where Detonator, Stride and Override are used.
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Nate Parkes
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Re: Azyn Robot Abilities (Detonator Overload Seems Underpowered?)
For comparison, consider the Azyn instant "Knuckle Detonator"

KNUCKLE DETONATOR! INSTANT
Spirit Cost 3 / Cooldown 1 / X=the amount of Power Dice used in your current attack. Your attack inflicts damage + X.

Let's say I have six power tokens and 10 spirit at the start of my turn, and I want to play a simple "Azyn Punch!" (2 spirit, 1 cooldown, 1 damage, 2 attack dice).

With Detonator Overload:
I spend 2 power to activate the Detonator Overload. Then I attack with 2 dice, keeping my power tokens in reserve for Detonator Overload. If the attack hits with 2 dice, I can spend four power and remove Azyn Punch! from the game to deal 6 damage instead of 2 damage.

With Knuckle Detonator!

I don't need to activate an ability, so I spend all 6 power dice on the attack, giving myself a really high hit percentage. On a hit, I play Knuckle Detonator! for 3 spirit to deal 8 damage instead of 2 damage.

It seems like for the cost of three spirit, I could deal more damage with a higher chance of dealing damage, and I wouldn't have to remove a card from the game. The only advantage I can see to Detonator Overload is that you can wait to see if the attack is successful before adding power dice for extra damage.
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Nate Parkes
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Re: Azyn Robot Abilities (Detonator Overload Seems Underpowered?)
Thanks for the response!

schlagamuffin wrote:
2. As any pilot, the ability helps against Takashi's Head On card. Doesn't stop it, but at least you can potentially add +6 damage. I have never not hated when Head On is played when it counters strong "per success" attacks - this helps equalize the momentum swing from Takashi's double Rage gain.


If you're not Arkan, how can you add +6 damage? Can you spend the 2 power that activated the ability to use with the ability? That would definitely give it a boost.

Quote:
agree that Detonator has much less utility throughout the entirety of a match compared to Iron Fusion 2, but Iron Detonator definitely changes the calculus of fighting Ayzn and I think there's some value in that. I'm interested to see if anyone can come up with an "Anarchy Ayzn" build where Detonator, Stride and Override are used.


That's what I'm trying to swing together. Thematically, I like the idea that Corto fights in a discarded Azyn prototype that couldn't sustain the Azyn Black form, but he's managed to find a self-destructive workaround.
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Steven Hammerschlag
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Re: Azyn Robot Abilities (Detonator Overload Seems Underpowered?)
Eldil wrote:
It seems like for the cost of three spirit, I could deal more damage with a higher chance of dealing damage, and I wouldn't have to remove a card from the game. The only advantage I can see to Detonator Overload is that you can wait to see if the attack is successful before adding power dice for extra damage.


Yeah, you're spending 3 FS to net 2 additional damage in that scenario, though you are also:
(1) using an instant which can be reacted to and even nullified by certain pilots, and (2) as you mentioned you're dedicating your power tokens before knowing the outcome. If you're the attacker then you're at a real disadvantage if your opponent has power tokens in reserve to boost defense dice.

Why not come to the battle with both!
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Steven Hammerschlag
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Re: Azyn Robot Abilities (Detonator Overload Seems Underpowered?)
Eldil wrote:
If you're not Arkan, how can you add +6 damage? Can you spend the 2 power that activated the ability to use with the ability? That would definitely give it a boost.


Will edit my post as +6 is just for Arkan, +4 for everyone else.

Eldil wrote:
That's what I'm trying to swing together. Thematically, I like the idea that Corto fights in a discarded Azyn prototype that couldn't sustain the Azyn Black form, but he's managed to find a self-destructive workaround.


YES!robotrobotrobot
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Oblivion Doll
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Re: Azyn Robot Abilities (Detonator Overload Seems Underpowered?)
To use Knuckle Detonator, you:

1. Make an attack.
2. Spend power (crucial, as this power is already spent).
3. Roll attack and opponent's defense/response.
4. If successful, play Knuckle Detonator for an amount of extra damage the opponent can see coming in advance, and prepare for the risk of.

To use Detonator Overload, you:

1. Make an attack WITHOUT spending power.
2. Roll attack, and opponent's defense/response.
3. If successful, spend any amount of power to improve the damage output of the attack.

In the former scenario, the opponent has much more knowledge of what you're doing, what you can do, and whether they need to shut you down. Detonator Overload is a *VERY* situational ability, but it's a lot less predictable, which is something of a justification for it being "underpowered" in an absolute sense.

It's very risky - but still possible - to play it early in a fight to slam 4 (or 6 with Arkan) extra damage into an opponent. It's more likely to be saved as a finishing blow, but in that role, it can turn ANY attack into such a strike and your opponent has to try and shut down everything you throw at them or risk it turning into a "suddenly +4 damage!" killer hit.
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Rock Bronson

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Re: Azyn Robot Abilities (Detonator Overload Seems Underpowered?)
I was going to say something similar to what Obliviondoll did, but I would add that the ability is something like Noriko's Bleeding Edge pilot ability in that it's a finisher. Like a steel gauntlet I would pull out mid to late game to outmatch the opponent's damage output in order to end the fight. Bleeding edge is more versatile, but also riskier if it fails. It's a shoo in for Arkan, but could be great for Takashi too- His pilot ability could make up for not having Ayzn Black Stage 2 as well.

But I feel you on Giant's Stride. For me, that's the one I want to put into play but never feel like justifies itself. But I haven't gotten to play it yet and feel it out.

Care to comment on that one, Steven? Is it just a way to deny Skyscraper attacks with minimum power? I know one power isn't much and you could deactivate after you do what you need to, but it just doesn't seem enough. If it comboed with Fusion stage one, that would be another thing and I would definitely use it, even if it only soaked on point of damage per round or something. As is I would just rather knock them down when the opponent tries to run away from Azyn's big mitts.
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Oblivion Doll
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Re: Azyn Robot Abilities (Detonator Overload Seems Underpowered?)
Opponent builds a wall of buildings and tries to keep them between you and themselves? Walk THROUGH the buildings, and open up a hole.

Opponent has combat advantage? Walk through the building they're standing on, then punch them in the back as it collapses under their feet.

You just find that buildings are making it hard to get around? Don't stop walking.
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Rock Bronson

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Re: Azyn Robot Abilities (Detonator Overload Seems Underpowered?)
Yeah, but at two damage a pop, I start to get dizzy from those antics... then maybe I take a nap. Wouldn't want that. No healing on that bot. Maybe the defensive suite makes up for it, I just haven't played that ability yet. Still feeling cautious.

But that does remind me of something- On pull forced movement, can you pull the opponent into you for more damage? It says in the rules that when robots collide they both receive two damage if I remember right.

For instance, if you were 3 distance away with one building in between you and the opponent and you powered up steel geyser with some power dice and got 4 successes, could you pull the opponent through the building and into yourself if you were willing to take the damage?
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Steven Hammerschlag
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Re: Azyn Robot Abilities (Detonator Overload Seems Underpowered?)
obliviondoll wrote:
Detonator Overload is a *VERY* situational ability, but it's a lot less predictable, which is something of a justification for it being "underpowered" in an absolute sense.

robotrobotrobot

esarge wrote:
Is it just a way to deny Skyscraper attacks with minimum power? I know one power isn't much and you could deactivate after you do what you need to, but it just doesn't seem enough. If it comboed with Fusion stage one, that would be another thing and I would definitely use it, even if it only soaked on point of damage per round or something. As is I would just rather knock them down when the opponent tries to run away from Azyn's big mitts.


Alex and I were playing some B side games last weekend and we did a classic Ayzn vs. Dai-Raijin V match (though this works arguably better on side A). There were several times where Dai would be on top of a 2-tier structure (only 3 were on the board) and even though I was adjacent to the structure/Dai, I only had Melee moves with range 1 that could not hit Dai. I could attack the structure to destroy it if I had the FS to use a 3 damage attack (structures need 3 damage to be destroyed), but Dai gets to respond to an attack on himself or an attack on the structure he's on top of.

BUT! If I would have had Titan's Stride activated, for 2 damage (Iron Fusion Stage 1 only mitigates attack damage) and a previous power token dedicated to the ability, I can simply blow through the structure, damaging Dai as he falls to the ground, bringing him back to within Melee range. That's where this ability (much like Detonator) comes in handy as it cannot be responded to. It's 2 damage on myself but who knows what sort of Impact card Dai will draw (no power surges please!). It's a chaotic way to make up for Ayzn's slow speed if you want to make your way around the map like this, though it's more useful
to negate Combat Advantage as you're most often going to be out of attack range if Robots are dancing on Structures.

You can also throw a barrier up on yourself to help soak up the damage you take from Titan's Stride.

esarge wrote:
For instance, if you were 3 distance away with one building in between you and the opponent and you powered up steel geyser with some power dice and got 4 successes, could you pull the opponent through the building and into yourself if you were willing to take the damage?


Yup! If you're feeling like your opponent needs some more damage, why not? From Rulebook (pg 12, forced movement):

PULL: When you Pull an opponent, they are Forcefuly
moved towards you (closer to your hex than the previous
hex they were Forcefully Moved into.) Opponents that are
Pulled collide with every robot and obstacle in their path.
In example 1, the green robot has succesfully played an
attack with the rules text “Pull your opponent up to 5 hexes”.
The red robot can be legally Pulled into any of the
highlighted green hexes, including the one the green robot
is on—if this happened, the red robot would be Forcefully
Moved through the 2 Structures between them, drawing
Impact cards for both, and then the robots would collide,
dealing 2 damage to both robots, and the green robot would
be pushed 1 hex back.

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Rock Bronson

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Re: Azyn Robot Abilities (Detonator Overload Seems Underpowered?)
Hmm. The tokens that could be placed are crater, rubble, inferno, flood, and arc hazard, so there's a 3/5 chance that it will be detrimental in some way disregarding elemental affinities in the opponent's build. Sounds good- I guess my other worry was that with only four movement, how often will the opponent let me set that up? Your example does make it make more sense though, in that it helps Ayzn to stay in range and consistently do damage. I guess I need to try it out!

Alternatively you could go with Kong and just target the buildings on side B... as always, lots of options to work with!

Out of curiosity, were you piloting Ayzn for elemental negation ability via Luftfaust? That was my first thought when I saw B side. If you remove elemental tiles, that just leaves Craters and Rubble, both of which it could utilize (especially with Kong at the helm)

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Steven Hammerschlag
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Re: Azyn Robot Abilities (Detonator Overload Seems Underpowered?)
esarge wrote:
I guess my other worry was that with only four movement, how often will the opponent let me set that up?


In my experience, even without Hadrian boosting Ayzn to 6 speed, there are several times that I've run up to a building ready to punch a Robot only to remember that Ayzn can't Melee past range 1 (edit: he has some range but most times I find myself lacking any ranged attacks) like most of the other robots. I've had to play defensive in those situations and brace for impact.

esarge wrote:
Out of curiosity, were you piloting Ayzn for elemental negation ability via Luftfaust? That was my first thought when I saw B side. If you remove elemental tiles, that just leaves Craters and Rubble, both of which it could utilize (especially with Kong at the helm)


Actually I haven't really - I have always embraced the chaos and ramp that is side B. Start the match next to a flood and speed up my cool down, and then go to town. With so many elements in play in a confined space its been easier for me to use my limited movement (or forced movement) to dictate how I interact with the landscape so I'm not just on fire all the time. Also, being able to choose where to put Rubble or Craters is great as Ayzn if you spread them out. Makes closing distance on your opponent a little easier (though works both ways).
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Oblivion Doll
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The rules .pdf says that you start measuring from the hex adjacent to you, and the implies (at least to me) that even if the hex is at a different elevation, it counts as range 1. That was always how I took it, and I thought it was smart to word it that way to allow melee attacks to actually work regardless of elevation if you could get close enough.
 
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Steven Hammerschlag
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This is how I think we're able to mechanically show the difference in reach in a traditional Melee attack between a robot like Ayzn, and Chogoking or Ogun (who both have longer range Melee attacks). If Dai is on top of a Tier 1 structure, Ayzn wouldn't be able to punch Dai effectively. Most of Ayzn's Melee attacks that are range 1 are meant to be performed when face to face with a robot.

Robots like Chogoking (who has a huge Sabre which increases his Melee range by 1) and Ogun (who has detachable fists) can effectively attack Dai because of their extended reach even though he's on top of a Tier 1 structure. Don't know if the visual makes sense but it's something we've talked about in several different games (how elevation and range are treated for attacking purposes). It felt right to have any sort of ranged, projectile attacks ignore elevation as the distance traveled is relatively the same considering the speed of most of the projectile attacks, and have Melee attacks have to count elevation.

To your point, it's true that you begin counting with your hex, though the important clarifying points below sum up how we wanted to treat range/elevation when it came to the two different types of attacks.

(P5, 3.1): When calculating range, begin counting with the hex adjacent to you, and end on your target’s hex.

• Ranged Attacks ignore elevation changes when determining their range.

• Melee Attacks count elevation changes when determining their range.
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Oblivion Doll
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schlagamuffin wrote:
This is how I think we're able to mechanically show the difference in reach in a traditional Melee attack between a robot like Ayzn, and Chogoking or Ogun (who both have longer range Melee attacks). If Dai is on top of a Tier 1 structure, Ayzn wouldn't be able to punch Dai effectively. Most of Ayzn's Melee attacks that are range 1 are meant to be performed when face to face with a robot.

Robots like Chogoking (who has a huge Sabre which increases his Melee range by 1) and Ogun (who has detachable fists) can effectively attack Dai because of their extended reach even though he's on top of a Tier 1 structure. Don't know if the visual makes sense but it's something we've talked about in several different games (how elevation and range are treated for attacking purposes). It felt right to have any sort of ranged, projectile attacks ignore elevation as the distance traveled is relatively the same considering the speed of most of the projectile attacks, and have Melee attacks have to count elevation.

To your point, it's true that you begin counting with your hex, though the important clarifying points below sum up how we wanted to treat range/elevation when it came to the two different types of attacks.

(P5, 3.1): When calculating range, begin counting with the hex adjacent to you, and end on your target’s hex.

• Ranged Attacks ignore elevation changes when determining their range.

• Melee Attacks count elevation changes when determining their range.


The way I took that, without an example, was "the hex adjacent to you is always range 1". It makes sense either way, to me, but it's good to have that confirmed.
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Steven Hammerschlag
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Yeah a visual should be included in rule book - I think overall the number of visuals as supplements to the rule explanations will most likely increase compared to the KS version.

This is probably an item we'd include on a reference page for most common rule questions.
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