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One Night Ultimate Alien» Forums » Rules

Subject: Nostradamus ruling rss

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Andrew Bowman
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When we played with Nostradamus, we also had the Synthetic Alien. After Nostradamus did his thing, the app said "Nostradamus is now on the Synthetic team." It did NOT say "Nostradamus is now a Synthetic."

I took this to mean that if the Synthetic dies, Nostradamus wins because he's on its team. I was told that no, that means Nostradamus becomes a copy of the Synthetic and the only way for him to win is if he himself dies.

Short discussion ended with them showing ne the rules for Tanner, saying Synthetic was the same as a Tanner and that convinced me they were right.

Then something happened in a later game and the app said to someone "you are now a Tanner." It did NOT say "you are on the Tanner team."

So here's the question: when the app says "Nostradamus is on the Synthetic team," does that mean they are (as the app literally says) now in the same team and Nostradamus wins if the Synthetic wins or does it mean Nostradamus becomes a second copy of the Synthetic and can only win by getting himself killed?
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Entrecruzado
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My understanding is you´re on his team, so, not another Synthetic.

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Michael Taylor
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Entrecruzado wrote:
My understanding is you´re on his team, so, not another Synthetic.

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Agree with this 100%
 
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Mike Beiter
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Essentially, Nostradamus is a cheerleader for whatever team he joins. Wolves, Aliens, Assassin etc.

All he cares about is if that specific character wins.

His actual identity/powers do not change.
 
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Andrew Bowman
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MajaiofDreams wrote:
Essentially, Nostradamus is a cheerleader for whatever team he joins. Wolves, Aliens, Assassin etc.

All he cares about is if that specific character wins.

His actual identity/powers do not change.


That was my interpretation as well. Nothing in the rules seemed to say that Nostradams ever changes his ability; he just changes who he wants to win.

The group was insistent that since the Synthetic rule says he's on his own team and if he dies, neither the aliens or the villagers win, that meant NOBODY else could win (just like the Tanner).

Throughout the whole conversation, I just kept wanting to scream "it doesn't say anything like that! You're making it mean something it DEFINITELY doesn't say!"
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Steven Albano
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According to the FAQ, whoever owns the game has the final say!
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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However, according to Ted Alspach, Nostradamus joins the team, he does not become a copy of the card.

So yes, Nostradamus seeing Synthetic essentially becomes an Apprentice Synthetic (akin to the Apprentice Tanner). He wins if the Synthetic team dies and Nostradamus survives.

That last part is important, Nostradamus always has an additional caveat that he must survive in addition to his team winning.
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Andrew Bowman
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Clipper wrote:
However, according to Ted Alspach, Nostradamus joins the team, he does not become a copy of the card.

So yes, Nostradamus seeing Synthetic essentially becomes an Apprentice Synthetic (akin to the Apprentice Tanner). He wins if the Synthetic team dies and Nostradamus survives.

That last part is important, Nostradamus always has an additional caveat that he must survive in addition to his team winning.


Can I get a source on that please?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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thorvindr wrote:
Can I get a source on that please?

Just look at the Nostradamus rules. They should say quite clearly that Nostradamus is on the team without actually being the thing and that he must live.

This was further clarified in the Beta Test to be correct, but the rules copy I have is very clear on this.
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Andrew Bowman
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Clipper wrote:

Just look at the Nostradamus rules. They should say quite clearly that Nostradamus is on the team without actually being the thing and that he must live.

This was further clarified in the Beta Test to be correct, but the rules copy I have is very clear on this.


Okay thanks. I'll check it out next time I'm with the book.
 
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Dustin Shunta
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How does Nostradamus work when he becomes on a team with a card in the middle?

For example, mortician is in the middle. Nostradamus looks at mortician and becomes on that team. Can he never win because mortician is in the middle and therefore has no neighbors that can die?

What about blob? synthetic alien?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Jimb0v wrote:
How does Nostradamus work when he becomes on a team with a card in the middle?

For example, mortician is in the middle. Nostradamus looks at mortician and becomes on that team. Can he never win because mortician is in the middle and therefore has no neighbors that can die?

What about blob? synthetic alien?

Note that Nostradamus looks at players' cards, not ones in the center. However, it is certainly possible for the cards to be moved to the center after he looks at them.

Here's how I understand Nostradamus' win condition working when there are no real members of his team in play for all his possible teams:

Village: Nostradamus must survive in addition to normal Villager win condition.
Werewolf/Vampire/Alien: Nostradamus must survive.
Assassin: Nostradamus must survive and the marked player must die (in the rare case there is none marked, he's with the Villagers)
Apprentice Assassin: Nostradamus must survive and an Assassin must die, unless there is also no Assassin in which case it's like he viewed Assassin.
Synthetic: Nostradamus cannot win.
Tanner: Nostradamus cannot win.
Blob: Nostradamus must survive.
Mortician: Nostradamus cannot win.

So yes, there are a few teams that if moved to the center after being viewed, will result in there being no hope for Nostradamus.

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Dustin Shunta
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Thanks for the quick reply. I swear the rules didn't specify to only look at players' cards, but we probably just missed it.
 
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Brian Lemieux
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Am I missing where it says it needs to be a player card? My rules say he may look at 1, 2, or 3 cards. Does not specify what ones.

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Mike Beiter
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A general rule of ONUW is that unless an ability specifically references a CENTER card, it only effects players cards.
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Brian Lemieux
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MajaiofDreams wrote:
A general rule of ONUW is that unless an ability specifically references a CENTER card, it only effects players cards.


I think we came to that conclusion last night. We ran into some issues with the roles we played looking at the middle cards and causing some major issues. One game it took us longer to figure out who won than it did to play it.

That probably should be a rule that they add to the rulebook.
 
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Camilo North
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Clipper wrote:

Here's how I understand Nostradamus' win condition working when there are no real members of his team in play for all his possible teams:

Village: Nostradamus must survive in addition to normal Villager win condition.
Werewolf/Vampire/Alien: Nostradamus must survive.
Assassin: Nostradamus must survive and the marked player must die (in the rare case there is none marked, he's with the Villagers)
Apprentice Assassin: Nostradamus must survive and an Assassin must die, unless there is also no Assassin in which case it's like he viewed Assassin.
Synthetic: Nostradamus cannot win.
Tanner: Nostradamus cannot win.
Blob: Nostradamus must survive.
Mortician: Nostradamus cannot win.

So yes, there are a few teams that if moved to the center after being viewed, will result in there being no hope for Nostradamus.



I'm assuming this is a personal interpretation and not information from the source? My feeling is that Nostradamus should default to a villager if his team doesn't truly exist. Most roles that transform default to villagers when their standard win conditions don't exist. Doppelganger and Copycat are boh villagers if they never used their ability, Assassin is a villager if there is no Mark of the Assassin, and Apprentice Assassin is a villager if there's no Mark or Assassin. Similarly, Traitors with no one to betray fall back to their old win condition rather than given an win condition that can't be met. I don't see that Nostradamus should be made an exception, especially when the scenarios are debatable, unintuitive, or outright impossible.

I'll also note that the other "cheerleader" roles (Minion, Squire, Apprentice Tanner, Renfield) are given alternate win conditions when the main members of their teams don't exist.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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lucioperca wrote:
I'm assuming this is a personal interpretation and not information from the source? My feeling is that Nostradamus should default to a villager if his team doesn't truly exist. Most roles that transform default to villagers when their standard win conditions don't exist.

I have confirmation on the Werewolf/Vampire/Alien cases from Ted Alspach during the app's beta testing.

The specific question was when Nostradamus had viewed the Squire, Minion or Renfield without any of the true counterparts of those teams in play. The response was that Nostradamus wins by staying alive, as it's already given that all the Werewolves or Vampires will survive. I can't quote the ruling due to rules of the test, but that's how Ted said they work.

The other teams are simply extrapolating from that concept. I haven't gotten official confirmation on them, but they all clearly make sense once you apply the conditions that Nostradamus wins if he survives and his team wins, but he is not an actual incarnation of his team.
 
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Camilo North
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Clipper wrote:
I have confirmation on the Werewolf/Vampire/Alien cases from Ted Alspach during the app's beta testing.

The specific question was when Nostradamus had viewed the Squire, Minion or Renfield without any of the true counterparts of those teams in play. The response was that Nostradamus wins by staying alive, as it's already given that all the Werewolves or Vampires will survive. I can't quote the ruling due to rules of the test, but that's how Ted said they work.

I'm likely to house rule a bunch of the scenarios then. While it's MOSTLY irrelevant whether the win condition is "survive" or "survive and also make sure the village wins in a game with no evil characters", I'm particularly against any case where it's mechanically impossible for a role to win. To my knowledge no such role existed prior to alien, noting the distinction between "if the other teams play well, I won't win" and "it's an intrinsic attribute of the card I have that I will lose, and literally no distribution of votes can change that". This gets especially bad since I've seen the app assign Nostradamus a non-village team even when he didn't interact with it, meaning that he can be saddled with an impossible win condition even if no one had that role to begin with.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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lucioperca wrote:
I'm likely to house rule a bunch of the scenarios then. While it's MOSTLY irrelevant whether the win condition is "survive" or "survive and also make sure the village wins in a game with no evil characters", I'm particularly against any case where it's mechanically impossible for a role to win. To my knowledge no such role existed prior to alien, noting the distinction between "if the other teams play well, I won't win" and "it's an intrinsic attribute of the card I have that I will lose, and literally no distribution of votes can change that". This gets especially bad since I've seen the app assign Nostradamus a non-village team even when he didn't interact with it, meaning that he can be saddled with an impossible win condition even if no one had that role to begin with.

The can't win scenario has existed since ONUV at the very least. A Prince with the Mark of the Vampire being the only Vampire role, with the other Vampires moved to the center means the Village cannot win. If the Assassin gives the Mark of the Assassin to a Prince, the Assassin can't win either. Cupid's Marks of Love can also make it impossible for some roles to win.

The key thing about all such situations are that they are exceedingly rare, though. The Nostradamus ones almost all require somebody to strategically manipulate the center roles. Sure, you could come up with a set of weird house rules to cater for all of these (which will be very hard for players to remember), or you could just enjoy the randomness that led your character to that position that they couldn't win for this particular game that only shows up once per hundred games.
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Camilo North
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It's a fair point about the Prince being capable of creating a no-win. I'm less convinced of the Mark of Love, again noting the distinction between difficult and impossible scenarios, though there are enough permutations that I won't try to claim that none exist.

I disagree with the characterization of "Nostradamus is a villager if on his own" (or "Nostradmus only needs to survive if on his own") is weirder or harder to remember than trying to define individual win conditions of each nonexistent team and how those win conditions interact. (Especially given the frequency with which I've seen "you can still win if you died" is characterized as a confusing rule.)

I did miss the rule that Nostradamus is required to tap the last role they saw, even if it was a villager, though, so I concede that this is an academic discussion.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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lucioperca wrote:
It's a fair point about the Prince being capable of creating a no-win. I'm less convinced of the Mark of Love, again noting the distinction between difficult and impossible scenarios, though there are enough permutations that I won't try to claim that none exist.

You might be right on the Marks of Love, actually. The cases I had thought of before involved things like the sole non-Vampire being in love with a Vampire, but in that case, the Vampires just need a circle vote to win.

Quote:
I disagree with the characterization of "Nostradamus is a villager if on his own" (or "Nostradmus only needs to survive if on his own") is weirder or harder to remember than trying to define individual win conditions of each nonexistent team and how those win conditions interact. (Especially given the frequency with which I've seen "you can still win if you died" is characterized as a confusing rule.)

That version of it is simple enough and would work fine, I guess. The intended method is simply taking the existing win condition for that team and tacking on 'and Nostradamus must survive'.

Quote:
I did miss the rule that Nostradamus is required to tap the last role they saw, even if it was a villager, though, so I concede that this is an academic discussion.

I can certainly see the no-win scenario being more common if you thought Nostradamus just left the app alone in that case.
 
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Angelo Alvarez
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What about a Nostradamus that received the Mark of the Traitor? How does the Mark of the Traitor affect Nostradamus?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Ziping3 wrote:
What about a Nostradamus that received the Mark of the Traitor? How does the Mark of the Traitor affect Nostradamus?

The Mark of the Traitor changes your win condition without changing your team. Nostradamus' team is the card he saw last. His goal with the Mark of the Traitor would be to ensure one of his teammates dies, just like any other role with Mark of the Traitor.
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MajaiofDreams wrote:
A general rule of ONUW is that unless an ability specifically references a CENTER card, it only effects players cards.


So I went back and looked at both Apprentice Seer and the Private Investigator, the App Seer says center card, and the PI says Player's Cards (as does Village Idiot, Revealer, Mystic Wolf, etc). I actually can't find one which is ambiguous. Do you have an example of that? I'm ok with the intent here; as Nostradamus is intended to be a cheerleader, so picking a role in the center doesn't benefit you as much. I'm just trying to see where this general guidance came from as it's news to me.
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