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Subject: Double surges doubt rss

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Neo X
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Hi, I have a doubt about double surges, for example when a zombie is attacking my hero.
zombie dice: 3 hearts and 2 surges
hero dice: 3 shields

RtL app says to spend zombie surges in the following order:
Surge: Disease
Surge: +1 Heart

Which is the right result?
1. hero takes 1 damage
or
2. hero takes 1 damage AND he is diseased
or
3. other
 
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Paul
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It's choice 2.

The attack and defense results are (in the form [Damage, Surges, Shields]) initially [3,2,3].

Since the attack isn't currently dealing any damage, the zombie would skip the disease surge to add a damage instead, so zombie spends the first surge on +1 damage, making the results [4,1,3].

For the second surge, return to the top of the list, skipping any surge that has already been spent. Zombie spends the second surge on disease. This means the hero will get diseased if he is dealt at least 1 damage from the attack. This makes the results [4,0,3] +disease.

Damage dealt is damage-(shields-pierce) and there's no pierce here, so it's just 4-3 = 1.

1 damage +disease.
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Warren Smith
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zaltyre wrote:
It's choice 2.

The attack and defense results are (in the form [Damage, Surges, Shields]) initially [3,2,3].

Zombie spends the first surge on disease. This means the hero will get diseased if he is dealt at least 1 damage from the attack. This makes the results [3,1,3] +disease.

Zombie spends the second surge on +1 damage, making the results [4,0,3] +disease.

Damage dealt is damage-(shields-pierce) and there's no pierce here, so it's just 4-3 = 1.

1 damage +disease.

Note: Technically, since the attack isn't currently dealing any damage, the zombie would skip the disease surge to add a damage instead. However, since there is more than one surge, it doesn't matter (because after spending the FIRST surge on damage, the SECOND gets spent on disease anyway).

I'm new to Descent. So, if the same attack/defense were rolled but only 1 surge was rolled, then the zombie does 1 point of damage without any disease?

Sorry. Just trying to make sure I'm reading your comments correctly.
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Jeff Thornsen
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In this case, you just activate both surges, since there's no reason not to (2 surge abilities, and 2 available surges).

But the RtL rulebook should explain that:

1. The monster will always use surges to deal damage (i.e. it won't "waste" a surge on Disease if the attack is going to deal 0 Hearts anyway)
2. The monster will always use surges to deal damage if they have any combination of abilities that KOs the Hero (i.e. they would rather deal +1 Heart and KO the Hero, than leave the Hero with 1 Health and Disease).

This is designed so that the monster will always use its surges in the most efficient way possible.

The basic behavior is:
1. KO the Hero, if at all possible (even if it means ignoring the surge usage order in the INFO box)
2. Otherwise, if dealing at least 1 damage, apply conditions (per the INFO Box)
3. Otherwise, use enough surges to actually deal damage
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Paul
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No problem,

Yes, that's what would happen. When monsters have a list of things to do, they'll generally skip down the list if one of the options would have no effect. That is, if the first action on the list is "engage the closest hero" and the monster is already adjacent to a hero, he will skip that action and move on to the next one- he won't "waste" an action to engage.

By the same token, if an attack isn't going to deal damage (as in this case, the damage result was equal to the shields if we pretend there was only 1 surge), the zombie won't try to inflict disease, since that requires that a damage be dealt. In other words, a monster won't "waste" a surge on a condition that will have no effect. Instead, he'll skip down the list to the next surge, +1 damage.
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Adam Hostetler
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So, can heroes do the same thing (pick which surge is applied first)?
 
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Jeff Thornsen
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slydog75 wrote:
So, can heroes do the same thing (pick which surge is applied first)?


Sure, but it doesn't usually make any difference. The actual damage calculation and application of conditions follows a very specific sequence so it doesn't usually matter what order the surges are applied in.

The main exception that we run into is using the default "Recover 1 stamina" surge ability, which then might enable you to activate a class skill or item that costs stamina and affects the attack roll in some way.
 
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Neo X
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Thank you all. Actually my doubt was related to this rule in the manual: "If the attack deals at least 1 heart (after rolling defense dice), the target suffers the listed condition." The point is "after rolling defense dice", so I was in doubt if surges should be considered or not for the disease condition.
 
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Paul
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That portion of ability text, "(after rolling defense dice)" is both needless and misleading. It's meant to be a reminder that defense results vs attack results dictate damage dealt (not actual damage suffered), but it reads as a confusing timing trigger, since rolling defense dice and dealing damage happen at totally separate points of an attack.

Step 1: Choose target(s) and weapon (if applicable)

Step 2: Roll dice. This is where the attack and defense results are first generated. The "results" consist of the total range, damage, surges, shields, etc from both the dice and other abilities.

Step 3: Check range. If the attack misses, the results of the attack get ignored and don't matter beyond this point.

Step 4: Spend surges. Here, surges get converted to other results (most commonly damage).
Sometimes, other figures will be affected by the attack now (blast). They get to roll their defense dice before proceeding.

Step 5: Deal damage. For each affected figure, total hearts - (total shields- total pierce) = damage dealt. Note that the damage dealt can never be greater than total damage (pierce in excess of the number of shields is ignored). Whether or not the dealt aahe is suffered (for example, Jain may choose to suffer the damage as fatigue) is irrelevant to things like conditions.
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Graham Martin
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zaltyre wrote:
It's choice 2.
Note: Technically, since the attack isn't currently dealing any damage, the zombie would skip the disease surge to add a damage instead. However, since there is more than one surge, it doesn't matter (because after spending the FIRST surge on damage, the SECOND gets spent on disease anyway).


This is not a minor "technically" comment. This is the proper analysis. The first 75% of your post is inaccurate.
 
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Paul
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Grahamers2002 wrote:
zaltyre wrote:
It's choice 2.
Note: Technically, since the attack isn't currently dealing any damage, the zombie would skip the disease surge to add a damage instead. However, since there is more than one surge, it doesn't matter (because after spending the FIRST surge on damage, the SECOND gets spent on disease anyway).


This is not a minor "technically" comment. This is the proper analysis. The first 75% of your post is inaccurate.


True. My point is that with two surges, the order of spending those surges has no real impact on the outcome of the attack. I'll edit the post so that it's technically correct.
 
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