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Subject: Combat Logic + AYZN BLACK! ONYX GENERATOR! (which is calculated first?) rss

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Nate Parkes
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AYZN BLACK! ONYX GENERATOR!

Permanently reduce the costs of your Robot cards without AYZN BLACK in their name by ½. Remove this card from play.


Combat Logic

Dash’s natural piloting ability reduces the cost of your Robot cards by 1 Fighting Spirit.


question 1:

PANZERSCHLAG! has a printed cost of 6 fighting spirit.

If both Onyx Generator and Combat Logic are active, what is the cost of PANZERSCHLAG?

a) 2 (6 x 1/2 = 3; 3 - 1 = 2)
b) 3 (6 - 1 = 5; 5 x 1/2 = 2.5, round up to 3)
c) 2 (6 - 1 = 5; 5 x 1/2 = 2.5, round down to 2)

Question 2:

If I play SCHNELLER SCHLAG! (FS cost 1) with Combat Logic... does the FS cost become 0? I assume not, otherwise I could trigger SCHNELLER SCHLAG infinitely, right?

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Oblivion Doll
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This is a good question! I'd like to know too.
 
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Steven Hammerschlag
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Eldil wrote:
AYZN BLACK! ONYX GENERATOR!

Permanently reduce the costs of your Robot cards without AYZN BLACK in their name by ½. Remove this card from play.


Combat Logic

Question 1:

Dash’s natural piloting ability reduces the cost of your Robot cards by 1 Fighting Spirit.


PANZERSCHLAG! has a printed cost of 6 fighting spirit.

If both Onyx Generator and Combat Logic are active, what is the cost of PANZERSCHLAG?

a) 2 (6 x 1/2 = 3; 3 - 1 = 2)
b) 3 (6 - 1 = 5; 5 x 1/2 = 2.5, round up to 3)
c) 2 (6 - 1 = 5; 5 x 1/2 = 2.5, round down to 2)


B. Dash's ability is activated at the beginning of the game, so you start with your cards already discounted. Panzerschlag!, when you're playing with Dash's Combat Logic, is not a 6 FS card, but a 5 FS card. If you play the Onyx Generator, it would then perform its "reduce the cost" action on the already reduced cost card. When rounding in GR! always round up (I don't think this is reflected in current pdf. online but should be in final).

Eldil wrote:
Question 2:
If I play SCHNELLER SCHLAG! (FS cost 1) with Combat Logic... does the FS cost become 0? I assume not, otherwise I could trigger SCHNELLER SCHLAG infinitely, right?


As it's written, yes you would be able to. Your opponent would be able to respond/gain rage infinitely as well, so this wouldn't last long.

You also can't use Iron Fusion Overkill to combo a single card infinitely (though there is a timeline out there where Ayzn is still punching an O-Gun).
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Nate Parkes
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Quote:
As it's written, yes you would be able to. Your opponent would be able to respond/gain rage infinitely as well, so this wouldn't last long.


Good point. But you can combo it with AYZN BLACK! CALAMITY K.O.! to sidestep that.

Assuming your opponent doesn't have an instant or counter that can push you or kill you, here's the combo:

Combat Logic: Dash’s natural piloting ability reduces the cost of your Robot cards by 1 Fighting Spirit.

Iron Fusion Stage 3 - Ayzn Black! or Iron Fusion Override

AYZN BLACK! CALAMITY K.O.! / MELEE / 6 FS (5 with combat logic) / 2 attack dice / 3 damage / Your opponent must perform a Recovery Roll. On a failure, they do not collect Rage until the beginning of their next turn.

If your opponent fails the recovery roll, attack with PANZERSCHLAG! infinite times.

Does that work?


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Mark Zmek
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schlagamuffin wrote:

As it's written, yes you would be able to. Your opponent would be able to respond/gain rage infinitely as well, so this wouldn't last long.


Would Ayzn-Dash care about handing out fighting spirit and power like candy? Your opponent would need enough damage in hand to kill you or they need something to move you away otherwise all the fighting spirit in the world can't save them from infinite damage. Maybe that's more likely than I'm giving it credit for, but that seems like it restricts what builds can respond to this a lot.
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Nate Parkes
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Candor Velexion wrote:
schlagamuffin wrote:

As it's written, yes you would be able to. Your opponent would be able to respond/gain rage infinitely as well, so this wouldn't last long.


Would Ayzn-Dash care about handing out fighting spirit and power like candy? Your opponent would need enough damage in hand to kill you or they need something to move you away otherwise all the fighting spirit in the world can't save them from infinite damage. Maybe that's more likely than I'm giving it credit for, but that seems like it restricts what builds can respond to this a lot.


If it's against a high-rage opponent like Takashi, then you have to be careful. If your opponent has enough attacks in hand to kill you, then can rage/power up from your 1-damage pokes until they're confident they can land those attacks, and then just play them as counters.

But if your opponent has few cards in hand and no 0-cooldown cards or forced movement cards, Azyn-Dash could probably disregard handing out spirit/power, it seems like.
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Steven Hammerschlag
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Eldil wrote:
Quote:
As it's written, yes you would be able to. Your opponent would be able to respond/gain rage infinitely as well, so this wouldn't last long.


Good point. But you can combo it with AYZN BLACK! CALAMITY K.O.! to sidestep that.

Assuming your opponent doesn't have an instant or counter that can push you or kill you, here's the combo:

Combat Logic: Dash’s natural piloting ability reduces the cost of your Robot cards by 1 Fighting Spirit.

Iron Fusion Stage 3 - Ayzn Black! or Iron Fusion Override

AYZN BLACK! CALAMITY K.O.! / MELEE / 6 FS (5 with combat logic) / 2 attack dice / 3 damage / Your opponent must perform a Recovery Roll. On a failure, they do not collect Rage until the beginning of their next turn.

If your opponent fails the recovery roll, attack with PANZERSCHLAG! infinite times.

Does that work?


I believe Alex changed up Calamity K.O. to be more in line with some of the other Ayzn Black cards that negate or take away a specific type of currency and not general Rage. I think this was negating FS as Core Collapse takes away power.

This wouldn't be fun for anyone if it worked and was used (though the probability of success of a natural Schneller Schlag roll against 2 defense dice is less than 50% so it would take a long time to end the game). There's still work being done behind the scenes regarding rules and card language that is not always updated in the spreadsheet anymore.
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Nate Parkes
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schlagamuffin wrote:
This wouldn't be fun for anyone if it worked and was used (though the probability of success of a natural Schneller Schlag roll against 2 defense dice is less than 50% so it would take a long time to end the game).


Agreed! Though, technically, if your opponent had no responses, you could just declare victory, since you can trigger an infinite cycle.

And yeah, that's not much fun.

It seems to me like the real culprit is Combat Logic. Do you know if you or Alex have ever considered adding "to a minimum of 1" to that ability?
 
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Steven Hammerschlag
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I think we want to avoid changing the pilot abilities so any changes would probably be addressed at the robot/pilot card level if anything.

The intent of Rage and the combat system in general is to discourage spamming and trolling and make both sides feel powerful on their turn and their opponents turn.
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Alex Cheng
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Eldil wrote:
schlagamuffin wrote:
This wouldn't be fun for anyone if it worked and was used (though the probability of success of a natural Schneller Schlag roll against 2 defense dice is less than 50% so it would take a long time to end the game).


Agreed! Though, technically, if your opponent had no responses, you could just declare victory, since you can trigger an infinite cycle.

And yeah, that's not much fun.

It seems to me like the real culprit is Combat Logic. Do you know if you or Alex have ever considered adding "to a minimum of 1" to that ability?


Sorry for the confusion—I wish I saw this earlier, 'cause I could've cleared this up immediately.

SCHNELLER SCHLAG! Actually has a cost of 2 and inflicts 2 damage, but we didn't change it because of the combo. We made the decision earlier that the fastest robots (Ascalon and Dai) needed to establish the cheapest (one of the ways we interpret quickness) a card can be, which is why they're the only 2 robots with 1 cost Instants.

This was left on the spreadsheet by mistake. Thanks for catching it!
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