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Subject: Stacking move: is there a difference between singe pieces and stacks? rss

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A L D A R O N
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The rules say:

Quote:
6/ A single neutral piece (i.e. of a color that has not been claimed yet) can only move onto another single piece of any other color. In other words, it can jump onto a joker piece, onto a piece of another neutral color or onto a piece of a color that has been claimed by either player. A single neutral piece cannot jump onto a stack. (See Diagram 4.)
7/ A stack with a neutral piece on top of it may jump onto any single piece or onto a stack of at most the same height. It cannot jump onto a higher stack. For instance, a stack of 2 pieces with a neutral piece on top of it can jump onto a single piece or another stack of 2 pieces, but not onto a stack of 3 pieces.

Are all these words just saying:

Quote:
A neutral piece or stack cannot move onto a higher stack.

Why are single pieces and stacks distinguished with separate cases: they behave the same. No?
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Florian Trabert
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You are right, there is no difference between single pieces and stacks. The rulebook is overly precise in this point.
 
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Russ Williams
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Aldaron wrote:
Why are single pieces and stacks distinguished with separate cases: they behave the same. No?

Probably because so many people freak out at concepts like a stack of one piece or a set with one element. (Cf. the long thread about a deck of one card a few months ago...) So rules end up being written to distinguish the 2 cases even when they behave the same.
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russ wrote:
Aldaron wrote:
Why are single pieces and stacks distinguished with separate cases: they behave the same. No?

Probably because so many people freak out at concepts like a stack of one piece or a set with one element. (Cf. the long thread about a deck of one card a few months ago...) So rules end up being written to distinguish the 2 cases even when they behave the same.

Yes. A misjudgment in rules design that's confused the hell out of people learning Conflict of Heroes!
 
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Angelo Wentzler
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I have to admit this is a problem that has long plagued the rules of the Gipf games. Kris tries his utmost to be clear and to be extremely explicit. In my not-so-humble-opinion he sometimes ends up overspecifying the obvious and omitting the not-so-obvious.

But writing clear as well as concise rules is pretty hard.

As a mathematician I have no problems with either the notion of a stack-of-one or a multipart-piece. But I've learned over 20 years of demoing that this is, strangely, not how most people look at things...

The funny thing is that the Lyngk rules even define a piece to be a stack-or-single-element at one point and then they still STILL fall back into the awkward wording...
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Jeff M
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Aldaron wrote:
The rules say:
Quote:
6/ A single neutral piece (i.e. of a color that has not been claimed yet) can only move onto another single piece of any other color. In other words, it can jump onto a joker piece, onto a piece of another neutral color or onto a piece of a color that has been claimed by either player. A single neutral piece cannot jump onto a stack. (See Diagram 4.) 7/ A stack with a neutral piece on top of it may jump onto any single piece or onto a stack of at most the same height. It cannot jump onto a higher stack. For instance, a stack of 2 pieces with a neutral piece on top of it can jump onto a single piece or another stack of 2 pieces, but not onto a stack of 3 pieces.
Are all these words just saying:
Quote:
A neutral piece or stack cannot move onto a higher stack.
Why are single pieces and stacks distinguished with separate cases: they behave the same. No?
Wow. Thank you for clarifying that. I do hope there are some good "how to play" videos out there. If the rest of the rule book is written like this I'm in for a long night. shake
 
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Alan Kwan
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Aldaron wrote:
Quote:
A neutral piece or stack cannot move onto a higher stack.

That's the logic.

Quote:
Why are single pieces and stacks distinguished with separate cases: they behave the same. No?

That's the practice. In practice, the board begins with a sea of single pieces, and single pieces are likely to comprise the majority of neutral "stacks" for a good part of the game. When a neutral color gets atop of quite a few stacks, it tends to get claimed soon and ceases to be neutral. Hence the rule for single pieces takes on a lot more prominance than the rule for taller stacks.
 
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Alan Kwan wrote:
In practice, the board begins with a sea of single pieces, and single pieces are likely to comprise the majority of neutral "stacks" for a good part of the game. When a neutral color gets atop of quite a few stacks, it tends to get claimed soon and ceases to be neutral. Hence the rule for single pieces takes on a lot more prominance than the rule for taller stacks.

That's another common source of the error in distinguishing cases that are in fact the same (and thus not writing a clear general rule; again, the same issue as with "groups" vs single pieces in Conflict of Heroes): clear rules are not stories about how the game unfolds, but definitive descriptions of the physics and logic of the game.
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