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Subject: So, three unstoppable damage? rss

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Brian Torrens
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So the orcs and necromancers cause 2 damage and the fatties cause 3 damage.

The Orc Abomination causes 3 damage with no armour save. That is just instant death for a hero... This sounds a bit.... challenging.
 
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Ian Toltz
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Wulfsburg added several new weapons that deal 3 damage. This game has the trebuchet at the very least, and I'd be surprised if it doesn't also have some weapons capable of dealing 3 damage.
 
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Vince De Zutter
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Sadly, the power creep in Black Plague/Green Horde has already reached the point where nothing is considered dangerous if it can't kill you in one blow and no weapon is considered useful if it can't kill abominations in one blow.
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Max Maloney
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The OP is referring to damage done to survivors. Since survivors have 3 hp, an attack for three that ignores armor seems to be an auto-kill.
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Yeah, I feel that the point made by Thiago during the CMoN Expo 2017 teaser, is pertinent here, which was that they wanted to change up player expectations about strategies that worked in Z:BP, but need to be rethought in Z:GH.

He was talking specifically about adjusting the tactics around Runners by altering the stats of other units. I think that the Abominations will fall into that category as well since going toe-to-toe with them, even with powerful weapons, is riskier now.
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Spencer S
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Brian T wrote:
So the orcs and necromancers cause 2 damage and the fatties cause 3 damage.

The Orc Abomination causes 3 damage with no armour save. That is just instant death for a hero... This sounds a bit.... challenging.


I could see my playgroup wanting to start with basic armor as additional starting equipment.
 
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Peter Brooks
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Asmor wrote:
Wulfsburg added several new weapons that deal 3 damage. This game has the trebuchet at the very least, and I'd be surprised if it doesn't also have some weapons capable of dealing 3 damage.


And a Ballista if you back it on KS.
 
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Brian Torrens
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My main point was that this version of the game will be very different when an Abomination is encountered. The original "Human Abom" causes 1 point of unstoppable damage. An "Orc Abom" causes 3 points of unstoppable damage which will kill a hero in a single blow.

I have played games in which a hero is caught in the same space as an abomination and losing a wound is not great, but is liveable. You basically have to play keep-away with an Orc Abom because losing a hero is a big deal! Even Orc walkers are a bigger threat being able to cause 2 damage each. Two Orc walkers in your space could kill you!
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Eric Harman
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There's a piece of armor in bp that grants armor saves vs aboms. (Shield of the ages?)
 
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Jim P
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Cooperton wrote:
There's a piece of armor in bp that grants armor saves vs aboms. (Shield of the ages?)


I thought that just gave you "Shove" - I think it's the Dwarven Shield (Vault weapon from NPC box 1?) that gives you armour saves against Abominations.
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Eric Harman
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Mightyjim wrote:
Cooperton wrote:
There's a piece of armor in bp that grants armor saves vs aboms. (Shield of the ages?)


I thought that just gave you "Shove" - I think it's the Dwarven Shield (Vault weapon from NPC box 1?) that gives you armour saves against Abominations.


Maybe so, I couldn't remember which one did it, it's been a while since I played bp.
 
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Jonathon Thompson
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I think that the Orc Fatties and Orc Abominations doing 3 damage is too much of a power creep. My personal preference, which I may house rule, is that all Orcs of any type do 2 Damage, being stronger than humans, but not enough to one-shot. This keeps them threatening because 2 of them will kill, but makes it not an instant death if you don't kill the only one in your square. I also think that this keeps it separate from the Abominataur because the Abominataur can break through walls and barricades. This then keeps the 3 damage to the Abominatroll which gets 3 Actions because it is in LoS to the Survivor it is attacking.

Also, it is the Dwarven Shield that gives you rolls against the Abomination.
 
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Brian Torrens
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Don't forget that you still get an armor save vs. walkers and fatties. Even though they are doing much more damage you can still survive.

I think that GH will create a very different game than BP. Something tells me that proper use of the trebuchet will make or break your game!
 
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If I understand the orc undead correctly, all the undead are non-human dead people.

I'd imagine an orc having the strength of a bull, or an ox. So an undead Orc abomination instantly killing a survivor is not unfair (thematically); I'd expect them too have super strength.

 
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James J

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ayano wrote:
If I understand the orc undead correctly, all the undead are non-human dead people.

I'd imagine an orc having the strength of a bull, or an ox. So an undead Orc abomination instantly killing a survivor is not unfair (thematically); I'd expect them too have super strength.



I don't know if anyone questions the in-game logic behind it; it's more the effect on gameplay. An Abom stuck in the middle of a large herd (far more likely with the new horde mechanic) doesn't leave you a lot of options. Ranged weapons (even the trebuchet) will only do so much.

I'm definitely on board, but I do see that this might limit play. I mean, it's not like you can afford to go toe-to-toe briefly while pulling off some master plan. All it takes is one or two enemies successfully tagging you to end it. And it seems like we will see multiple Aboms on the board at once. On the bright side, I assume few of the scenarios will stipulate all survivors must be alive for a win.
 
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Lance Bull
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My biggest concern is that the damage output jump from the zombies in GH discourages and penalizes melee too much.

I play casually with my family and friends and several of them love melee combat. GH seems to force the game play into ranged as the risk / reward for melee is getting worse. A single strategic mistake or few poor dice rolls by one of these casual players is a game ender instead of a bad situation to recover from.

I don't see armor being drawn randomly while searching as a good answer to the problem since melee players are delaying to play the game and it only improves the situation slightly (3 damage abom doesn't care about armor).

Are there any additions to GH that balance the game play to allow melee to compete with range?. Or is the purpose of melee in GH to be the last desperate fall back when ranged can't keep up with the zombie hordes?

I will give the rules as written a few tries when I get GH, but I expect I will need house rules to keep melee casual friendly.
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James J

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LanceBGamer wrote:

Are there any additions to GH that balance the game play to allow melee to compete with range?. Or is the purpose of melee in GH to be the last desperate fall back when ranged can't keep up with the zombie hordes?


I've found a combo of ranged and melee works best in Z:BP myself. Except for a few high-level ranged abilities/vault weapons, melee characters excel at clearing a mob. I like that we aren't forced into using one or the other.

As for your question, we now have two exclusive heroes (Ali and Wolvie) who are specifically listed as hand-to-hand brawlers. People have been wondering if we will see gear or some other game mechanic that favors a brawling attack. Might be a way to balance out these really tough zombies: introduce an extreme risk/reward situation. -?- But there's no way they would limit that to KS exclusive survivors, so we would expect to see at least one core box hero with a similar ability. (Unless the brawling is pure flavor text fluff.)
 
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Brendan Slade
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I think it is good to have Orc abominations able to instantly kill you if they hit. Otherwise the abominations are not all that dangerous a lot of the time because you can take a wound and then just run off and they can't catch you and you can then get healed.
 
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Eric Harman
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Vladvonbounce wrote:
I think it is good to have Orc abominations able to instantly kill you if they hit. Otherwise the abominations are not all that dangerous a lot of the time because you can take a wound and then just run off and they can't catch you and you can then get healed.

This.
Until orc aboms, the only really dangerous ones are the ones with multiple activations (wolf, alpha, troll)
The rest are inconveniences at best.
Even the orc aboms won't be *that* dangerous, cause theyre slow
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Wes Rowley
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Yeah, agreed, Eric. If you backed Black Plague as well (as I did), these orc abominations seem fine balance-wise. Troll abominations, wolfbominations, abominalpha... they're far more dangerous, due to their increased mobility. The ability to instant-kill just means you have to be more careful than ever to stay away from them.

Also, it's important to note that orc runners still do a single point of damage. I don't know about you guys, but aside from wolfz, runners tend to pose the biggest threat to my groups. In my experience with BP, it's usually best to avoid charging into huge mobs anyways, unless you have decent armor and can be reasonably sure of killing all your targets. If the orcs feel a little on the tough side, combining it with BP will certainly help, though it would hurt the theme a little bit.
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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LanceBGamer wrote:
My biggest concern is that the damage output jump from the zombies in GH discourages and penalizes melee too much.

GH seems to force the game play into ranged as the risk / reward for melee is getting worse. A single strategic mistake or few poor dice rolls by one of these casual players is a game ender instead of a bad situation to recover from.
Are there any additions to GH that balance the game play to allow melee to compete with range?. Or is the purpose of melee in GH to be the last desperate fall back when ranged can't keep up with the zombie hordes?

Agreed. The main difference will be Orc Fatties doing 3 damage now.

Even with armour, the chance to ward off an attack by a few fatties is very low. Only a single attacks that comes through = an instakill.
I agree that the Orc Abomination isn't all that bad due to it's low mobility and there's already stronger abominations around.
But fatties .. they come in hordes.

I do think players will concentrate more on ranged survivors. Or melee heroes with Slippery (Nelly, Hitch) or Hit & Run so you can always get away if you roll badly.
Heroes like Guinevive and Milo may become very popular. Also if you look at the Dragons and Spectral Walkers that can only be damaged by magic (and vault weapons).
 
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Ettore Cavalieri
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LanceBGamer wrote:
My biggest concern is that the damage output jump from the zombies in GH discourages and penalizes melee too much.

I play casually with my family and friends and several of them love melee combat. GH seems to force the game play into ranged as the risk / reward for melee is getting worse. A single strategic mistake or few poor dice rolls by one of these casual players is a game ender instead of a bad situation to recover from.

I don't see armor being drawn randomly while searching as a good answer to the problem since melee players are delaying to play the game and it only improves the situation slightly (3 damage abom doesn't care about armor).

Are there any additions to GH that balance the game play to allow melee to compete with range?. Or is the purpose of melee in GH to be the last desperate fall back when ranged can't keep up with the zombie hordes?

I will give the rules as written a few tries when I get GH, but I expect I will need house rules to keep melee casual friendly.


I have thought about that too... I think the way to boost melee will be with the combo weapons (the ones that come on sets), haven't seen any combo with ranged weapon, they might be exclusive for melee, that would encourage melee players!

I sense the difficult as welcoming, the game became easy, even with all the aboms if you play it safe
 
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Greg Tannahill
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Meanwhile poor Garuk never gets a damage upgrade at any level. Officially the Weakest Orc?
 
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