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B-17 Flying Fortress Leader» Forums » General

Subject: Convince me to play rss

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Jeff Rhind
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My copy of B-17 is still in shrink. I've been going through the rules (05/17 v3) and I feel it's a real slog. I'm sure I'm in the minority but I'm just not feeling it. It looks over complicated and just tons of +/- modifiers. I haven't seen any playthroughs and I'm considering just not making the effort as I have plenty of other games I can get to the table. I've heard this is THE best DVG game to date. I own TAL, PLD, and FC: Alexander. Perhaps those games are simpler. I have never been so on the fence about a game before.
 
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Mike Adams
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I also own TAL, PLD as well as HLCAO.
I absolutely love those games.
B17 FFL is the BEST of the "leader" games that Ive played so far.
Like ANY new game there are some minor issues.
The "biggest" issue is the rulebook.
Print out the revised rulebook as it is laid out much better.
Dean Brown (game designer) has done an excellent job answering any questions that have come up, (most just needing clarification) revising the rulebook and is also working on an entire war campaign.
1942 through 1945
(he must not need much sleep)

Edit:
If you are at all interested in the US bombing campaign over German occupied Europe during WWII this game is a MUST have!!!

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Michael Wheal
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Kosse
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What Mike said +1

 
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flash7713
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I second all of the above - played a few games yesterday and was engrossed.

After two run throughs of the U-Boat campaign, the game flowed really well with few rules consultations.
 
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Rich Paris
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jeffrhind wrote:
I haven't seen any playthroughs


Ah,,, did you miss the 2 playthroughs Dean posted here? I watched them both before I cracked the rule book.
VERY helpful in understanding game flow and modifiers.

To Dean for the videos +1
This IS the best Leader game yet +2
Did not game today, -1 if OK, -2 if Shaken

Been playing daily till today for the last 3 weeks, flying a game week (mostly 2 missions) a real day.
Does not take long to fly some missions.

Open it up and enjoy
 
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Adam Parker
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jeffrhind wrote:
My copy of B-17 is still in shrink. I've been going through the rules (05/17 v3) and I feel it's a real slog. I'm sure I'm in the minority but I'm just not feeling it.


Jeff, I’ve bought tons of games and felt the same way. So before answering you, I’ll ask you first:

What made you buy the game?
 
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Derek Davis
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Hi Jeff,

As Rich mentioned, take a look at Dean's 'Overview' video, in which he plays through one mission - attacking a ball bearing factory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B13srSlKL-0

It not only gives you an overview of the game, I also find it useful for clarifying some of the rules and picking up one or two tips.

As far as the modifiers are concerned, they all make logical sense and relate to the effect of various factors and variables such as weather, the level of intelligence, skill levels, strategies and tactics employed by commanders, the type of ordnance used - to name but a few. Plus, some variables are optional - you decide on the level of complexity you want to play. For me, BFFL is not only a game, but an abstracted simulation.

At the end of the day, it really depends on how much you're into the subject.

Cheers,
Derek
 
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Jeff Rhind
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Adam Parker wrote:
jeffrhind wrote:
My copy of B-17 is still in shrink. I've been going through the rules (05/17 v3) and I feel it's a real slog. I'm sure I'm in the minority but I'm just not feeling it.


Jeff, I’ve bought tons of games and felt the same way. So before answering you, I’ll ask you first:

What made you buy the game?


Prior DVG games that I own (Tiger Leader aside). But after looking over the first set of rules, I was disappointed. Plus there were a lot of criticism that is presently clouding my mind. I also own Warfighter WWII but I haven't played that either. Frankly, I'm not that confident that DVG is (to quote another BGG user) not on a good path lately. Now, still making my way through the v3 of the rules and although they are better, it's not grabbing me. I know there are people who think I am crazy and love, love love, DVG but maybe DVG and I have run our course, and we are done. I dunno.
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Adam Parker
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Thanks for the reply Jeff, that helps.

Ok here's what I'd advise with a bit of background from me.

I stopped buying DVG around 2012. I own a lot of their titles but never played a single one. Some components didn't impress like the Phantom Leader 1 map and some errata turned me off like U-Boat Leader. But nothing inside anything really grabbed me.

On the chatter of some new online colleagues I finally cracked the seal of my Hornet Leader Carrier Air Ops. Found it easy, but not historically grabbing.

I hated to say, HLCAO wasn't for me. I liked its quick learn-quick play aspect but I craved immersion and solid historical grounding.

Now I'm a huge air warfare aficionado. And through this same chatter I heard B-17 Leader was soon to release. Never saw it's Kickstarter and I'll never fund one. I too wondered whether it would be much of the same DVG fare. But on researching I found what appeared to be a real operational game inside: the chance to fight as the 8th AF. I'd never seen that in a boardgame before and I'd always wanted it.

The game launched and I saw the "rulebook disaster" thread here. But as a longtime gamer I could handle that. And the game arrived - and I was happy. Subject = interest = little errata = worthy of time to invest in learning.

So here's my advice, if the subject matter of the game really grabs you as much as it does me, open it up and play. B-17 Leader is a game I'll be playing very often. I do not consider it to be a standard DVG game - and I actually think DVG missed the marketing boat on this one passing it off as if it is.

If the subject matter doesn't grab you, then sell it. It's so easy to learn but you'll likely lack the enthusiasm to try.

If you think it's something you will want to play but not this year, then it gets hard. Dean had said that when the game reprints, it will have the new rulebook inside. So do you sell it now and buy it later? I don't know the answer to that one
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Jim Lederer
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I was able to play just fine with original rules.
 
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Jeff Fike
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I can make a video...but I assure you I have never done something like this before so I am leery of it. I also noticed what you have, not very many playthrough videos.

HLCAO is my favorite Leader game.
This is easily tied. Both of them make me feel progression, and immersion. Also, the campaigns for both are nice and lengthy.

TAL is third for me, uboat being at a lower tier.
And Panzer leader/Gato Leader being at the bottom rung. Both of these, I had real high hopes for.

The rules take you step by step, just play as you read. That is the way to do it. Of course, you will have questions. But that is why we are here. Dean is extremely responsive. I am as well, but he is much less snarky than me.
 
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Dean Brown
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I am hoping to make a video this weekend.
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Adam Parker
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LongTom wrote:
I was able to play just fine with original rules.


That's how I originally learned - and I very much liked the programmed approach as someone else here said: read the section and play it out in order. It's pretty much how I learned HLCAO.

However I reluctantly admit that Dean's new final rulebook is massively superior in content - it just adds so much more insight and clarity like each plane hit equalling 3 aircraft lost; each Bomber and Fighter group equaling not 16 planes but 48 (16 strength).

And yes, we're lucky he's given it to paying customers within a month of release, albeit as a download.
 
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Mike Adams
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I don't think he (Dean Brown) sleeps..........
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