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Subject: Noriko's Combo Chain with Lightning Glaive / Flash Combo rss

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Rock Bronson

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The cards are worded as follows-

LIGHTNING GLAIVE! (7/3,1-2,2,2,counter, X=the amount of Power Surges in your opponent's Cooldown Meter. Add X Attack Dice to this attack.) Inflict damage per success.

FLASH COMBO! (3/3,1,3,3,combo) Your successes=X. You may pay 2X Fighting Spirit to Trigger: Inflict damage +2X.

Combo Chain can be used to add the combo subtype to Lightning Glaive, Allowing you to roll 5 natural dice, six if they have a surge.

Cards resolve in order, so with 3 successes this combo would do
-Lightning Glaive 3x2=6
-Flash Combo 3+(2x3)=9

for a total of 15 damage for 19 fighting spirit, right? Or if you were lucky, and got 5 successes...

5x2=10
3+(2x5)=13

23 damage for 23 FS. If you add power dice the whole thing gets real. with eight successes which since the counter subtype is applied could actually happen you would do 35 damage for 32fs. Not a trivial number, but Noriko could do this in turn 3 on A side, or turn 2 on B side if the player is running Bleeding Edge, completely murdering ShinOkami or Ascalon Alpha.

Am I calculating wrong?
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Oblivion Doll
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First, you did make mistakes.

One is that you are using both counter and combo subtype - they're mutually exclusive and can't apply to the same attack. Even if you have FTL Combo (which would cost another 4FS) to play combos in your current counterattack turn, you don't benefit from the "counter" subtype when performing a combo.

Another is that you counted the base number of dice as 5. You only add +1 for each extra card in a combo. If you play Flash Combo first, for 3 dice, the Lightning Glaive only adds +1, so you only get 4 native, and only reach 6 if you have 2 surges.

Last mistake plays in your favour though - base FS cost for the attack is 13. If you get 8 successes, you have to pay an extra 8 x 2 = 16. That's only 29 FS to perform a 35 damage attack.

Also, while unlikely for someone to actually DO it, here's the theoretical peak "WTF?" damage output and cost:

Combo Chain (3FS) + Lightning Glaive (7FS) + Flash Combo (3FS) = 13FS.

Opponent has 2 or more power surges.

Flash Combo rolls 3 dice naturally, +1 for combo, +2 for surges = 6. Any more and you disregard the extra dice anyway.

Add 6 power dice to the attack for the best O_o face ever created. If you ace your roll, AND your opponent's roll is a flop, you can theoretically make 12 successes. This is SUPER-unlikely, but not impossible.

In this scenario, you deal a base of 3 damage + 2 per success, which comes to a total of 27 damage. This is before using the special effect of Flash Combo. For an extra 24 FS, you can deal an additional 24 damage. This results in a cost of 37 FS, and a total output of 51 damage. You would 100% need to have Bleeding Edge in order to perform this attack, since Noriko maxes out at 30FS, so you'd be spending armour to top yourself up mid-attack when you're actually using the secondary effect of Flash Combo.
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Rock Bronson

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Counter and Combo and mutually exclusive! Okay, that's good actually. I thought that attack example would be so strong as to be un-fun with both. But where did you find the info- I see the rules say that if a card is used in counterattack that the card would lose the combo ability, but if the intent is to make them mutually exclusive, I think it's maybe easier to just say that. Easier to remember. But, my memory is no bueno.

Thanks for reminding me about combo rules. (+1 attack die per card) I'm a little rusty! But excited about working up some B side builds, kinda randomly working up a Noriko / Dai Raijin build

But yeah, Hyper-Bleed Noriko could make that attack Hurrrrrrrrt....
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Oblivion Doll
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Counter subtype is deactivated when initiating an attack, it's only activated when the card is used for a counterattack. Combo subtype is deactivated when counterattacking, and is only activated when initiating an attack.

It isn't explicitly stated that the two are mutually exclusive, but the rules establish a scenario where they only apply in mutually-exclusive circumstances.

FTL Combo! is the only card in the entire game which allows for the combo subtype to apply to a counterattack. Working the opposite way around, Singh's Tactical Instinct is the only card which allows the counter subtype to apply when making an attack.

I'm sure I've seen a comment from one of the creators where they said the two are meant to be mutually exclusive for situations like this, but I can't find it and don't remember where it was.

Running with the rules as written, there's no clarification on how the two interact in the VERY rare situations where they potentially could do so. Combo subtype explicitly requires all cards to have that subtype. Does the counter subtype? It's not intended to be in use unless it's the only card in the attack, so... maybe?

If so, then you COULD still make this work by throwing Noriko's Counter Chain ability into the mix as well. FTL Combo! + Counter Chain would add another 7 points to the cost of the attack though, and you could only use it to counter if you want all the benefits, not as an attack on your own turn.
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Alex Cheng
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FTL Combo! is currently the only instance in which you can use combos and counters at the same time, and it would have to be in response to your opponent's attack. So if you're not the attacking player, you could add Counter Chain as well.
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Oblivion Doll
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So you can't throw a combo as Singh and use Tactical Instinct on it to gain Counter subtype on the combo?

And in this example, you DO have counter subtype on one attack. Is that enough or does it need both attacks to have that?
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Rock Bronson

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I might phrase this wrong, but it sounds like for a combo to work where there is a requirement, such as qualifying for melee +1 Bonus with Takashi's Born to fight ability (all cards must be melee in the combo to count) or even just to combo at all (all cards must be combo) the comboed cards must match subtype.

So to play both cards as counter and combo at the same time, I need for both cards to have both the combo and counter subtypes and I need to be responding to an attack, since that's a further requirement of the counter subtype.

So then (and forgive me if I'm rehashing something I was told earlier or missed in the rules) the way I'm understanding FTL Combo is that it doesn't let you combo off of your counter cards, it just lets you play more than one attack card when responding to an attack, enabling you to combo with your combo cards. This counter-attack combo is not counter sub-type, unless all of the cards in the counter-attack combo are counter subtypes. (And combo subtypes, as mentioned before) So, to pull off the Lightning Glaive/Combo Chain of rock your socks off combo, the player would have to play three instants,
-FTL Combo to enable comboing
-Counter Chain to make Flash Combo a counter as well as combo subtype
-Combo Chain to make Lightning Glaive a combo as well as counter subtype

Timing-wise, it would be
FTL Combo in response to the other player attacking at Range 1.
Combo Chain before declaring your counterattack
Counter Chain after declaring your counterattack

So, still possible with Bleeding edge, but the total cost is 20 base + X2 where x is the # of successes you want to double damage for. Also, you have to make it through all that without the opponent canceling your instants, and then succeed on your roll. It's risky enough that it doesn't seem so dangerous in that light. But let me know if I got something wrong there. Lol, I tried hard to say it the very longest way possible.
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Alex Cheng
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obliviondoll wrote:
So you can't throw a combo as Singh and use Tactical Instinct on it to gain Counter subtype on the combo?

And in this example, you DO have counter subtype on one attack. Is that enough or does it need both attacks to have that?


Sorry, I was locked on Dai+Noriko.

Singh's Tactical Instinct is technically the other option in the game, but with With Singh's 25 max FS, and requirement to steal the Counter subtype, you couldn't actively engineer that combo with a Counter, and you would have to trigger Dai-Raijin's Thunderclap to cheat a card into play.

Should've disclaimed that first. Both are viable, it's just harder with Singh.
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Oblivion Doll
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jetjagaa wrote:
obliviondoll wrote:
So you can't throw a combo as Singh and use Tactical Instinct on it to gain Counter subtype on the combo?

And in this example, you DO have counter subtype on one attack. Is that enough or does it need both attacks to have that?


Sorry, I was locked on Dai+Noriko.

Singh's Tactical Instinct is technically the other option in the game, but with With Singh's 25 max FS, and requirement to steal the Counter subtype, you couldn't actively engineer that combo with a Counter, and you would have to trigger Dai-Raijin's Thunderclap to cheat a card into play.

Should've disclaimed that first. Both are viable, it's just harder with Singh.


Yeah, I wasn't saying he'd be able to make this particular combo work. Sounds like he has some tricks of his own to play with, though
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