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Pericles: The Peloponnesian Wars» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Some tricks that seems a bit too strong rss

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Loïc Boué
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VITRY SUR SEINE
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After a few solitaire games, I found some moves a bit too strong and/or somewhat non-historical.

1) Athens build a league base in Attica on the first turn on any of the longer scenarios.

Stronger long walls : Sparta needs to bring 2 more naval units to have the same odd to win a naval battle, which translate in 2 less spartan land units for the eventual land battle : a 6 strenght shift.

Stronger naval yards : once converted to a city base, Attica can produce 3 athenian naval units, or 6 land units, per military issue.

Attica vanished : there is no room for Sparta to build a base, unless they manage to destroy one first (good luck with that).

Question : either I missed a rule that prevent building 3 bases of the same side, or this lock-down effect is both very powerful and somewhat difficult to explain.

The drawbacks are : cost 1 issue, 1 less base to build somewhere else, Sparta will not even bother to come and will focus somewhere else.
Those drawbacks could balance the effect, but still, locking down Attica with one issue seems odd.

2) Sparta do the same thing.

Less useful for Sparta than Athens, but still yield both higher production capacity and lesser need to keep land units for defense.
In later scenario, Sparta might also lock-down Sicily.
Building a third base in Corinth can also be quite strong for building league units.

3) Sparta grabs Iona on turn 1, converts to spartan base on turn 2.

Unless Athens reacts swiftly, Iona will be impossible to ever retake (it's a land theater). Then Spartan navy can bypass the blockade during the redeployment phase and safely wait there for an opportunity. Persia alliance will be possible almost immediately. Hellespont will be under severe and immediate threat.

This all sounds very familiar with what actually happened at the end of the war, but not on turn 2.

I'm not that worried about the strenght of this bold move against human players in Athens. They will know they have to react immediately.
But Phormio seems blissfully unaware that he should try to retake Ionia before going to have fun in Sicily.

4) Poor Argos.

It looks like the opposite of a strong move.

Athens has to build a base in Sparta, hopes it survives long enough to build 4 Argos land units (2 League issues), then see them being crushed by Sparta, but get the benefit that it will kill 1 Spartan unit and doesn't cost honor to Athens.
I would understand a political issue "Argos alliance", or a rule to have a league issue in Sparta brings in Argos (maybe with some conditions). But why would a human player, or even the bots, ever bother with Argos ?

I'm ok that the game doesn't force players to do historical stupid moves, but there should be a set of circumstances that brings in Argos (Aristophanes?).

 
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Nathan Lee
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I'm not sure of the others you mentioned (all seem like good questions, btw), but in the case of 1), didn't the Athenians lock down Athens historically, and towards the beginning of the war?

 
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Loïc Boué
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Athens was protected by its walls. Attica being a naval theater, the bases in Attica (representing Athens) are safe as long there is a single surviving fleet after the naval battle. The strenght of 2 bases seems historically accurate to me.

I don't think a third base is meant to represent improving Athens walls. Historically Sparta did build a fort at Decelea to enable the Spartan army to remain in Attica (I think Alcibiades suggested that to the spartan King after having fled Athens). What bother me is that this becomes basically impossible when a third base is build.

However, I misunderstood the rule about redeployment : spartan units can't stay in a theater with only a league base.
This impacts some of the "tricks" I discribe above. A P League Base in Attica or Ionia will be much easier to destroy than I thought, so it might be beneficial for Athens to let Sparta build them.
 
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Mark Herman
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Quote:
I don't think a third base is meant to represent improving Athens walls. Historically Sparta did build a fort at Decelea to enable the Spartan army to remain in Attica (I think Alcibiades suggested that to the spartan King after having fled Athens). What bother me is that this becomes basically impossible when a third base is build.


I would respectfully disagree with your initial assumption here that this represents strengthening the long walls, which it is not.

Athens had several border forts that for reasons that are unclear they did not defend during the initial Spartan invasion of the 2nd Peloponnesian war, but were defended in the earlier conflict. In fact one of the major sore points is that under the terms of the Peace of Nicias the Thebans were to return two of these forts, which the Thebans leveled in violation of what the Spartan's agreed to. The Spartan base in Decelea could have been built and maintained by the Athenians, not sure why, but it may have been a major historical mistake. As the game is a sandbox design, you get to redo stuff like this if you want to.

The third base in both Sparta or Athens represents a different defense strategy than the one taken historically. On the other hand what you have taken as an auto move overpowered issue may have other counters than those you have considered. Lastly, while it may be very difficult to eliminate Athens or Sparta, I have on occasion been able to do so.

FWIW,

Mark
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