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Subject: Wave 2 pickup and user FAQ questions rss

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Neil Edmonds
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There's another pick-up event in the WA area. Jason Hill is usually busy with product demos while Scott Hill is out greeting backers. Nevertheless, it might be our last opportunity before the Forbidden Fortress launch to get Jason and Scott's attention for rules questions.

I was considering typing something up that the Hill brothers could ponder during/after the event. I would only get to ask 1-3 questions orally, and often, the Q&A might be forgotten by the end of the evening.

I will have to rely on the community's experts to weigh in on the most important questions and help curate this thread. Off the top of my head, I'm aware of concerns about the following:

1.) Dynamite damage and whether class skills & runes apply to it. Some of this concern was created by the introduction of Inferno Shot for the Outlaw's Sawed-off Shotgun.
2.) Questions about whether other classes can use restricted items that are only restrictive because of the purchase location (Smuggler's Den, Sheriff's Office).
3.) The loose wording of gain Sanity/Grit on some travel and location events and whether they are permanent increases or simply restoring existing damage a character may already have. Also, damage in town sometimes carries over to the next adventure, while other forms of damage don't mention this requirement, so does that damage go away at the start of the next adventure?
4.) Confusion over the inconsistency of "hits ignoring Defense" vs. "Automatic Hits" vs. "Wound" effects.
5.) Questions about how the High Noon shootout impacts possee members with the "for the next adventure" effects (BTW - some of the scenario rules are on the Daily Town Event card).
6.) Can Grit be used for Location Event and Level Up Bonus re-rolls?

So fire away. I will do the best I can, but please remember, I only have the same influence and pull to get answers that any other customer would have.

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Friedmutant
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When and where is the event? I'm not a KS backer, instead I did a partial minecart via retail, but this still might be fun to attend. It's probably in Lynnwood, which would be a bit awkward for me.
 
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Troy Gustavel
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Friedmutant wrote:
When and where is the event? I'm not a KS backer, instead I did a partial minecart via retail, but this still might be fun to attend. It's probably in Lynnwood, which would be a bit awkward for me.


Quote:
Shadows of Brimstone Kickstarter Wave 2 Seattle Pick-Up

1:00-5:30PM Saturday, June 24th

Old Redmond Schoolhouse Community Center
16600 NE 80th Street
Redmond, WA 98052

* * * * You MUST RSVP no later than June 17th. * * * *


It might only be open to KS Backers though.
 
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Neil Edmonds
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It's a pick-up event at the Old Redmond School House Community Center.

Quote:
Many KS Backers asked us for another Seattle Area Pick-Up for Wave 2. We are excited to say that we have secured another great location and are putting together a fun event where KS Backers in the area can come and pick up their final Wave 2 package and enjoy previews and demos of upcoming Shadows of Brimstone material!

It will be a fun time where KS Backers can come pick up their stuff, meet the development team, have any of your FFP games signed, see previews of new Shadows of Brimstone content including a sneak peek at the upcoming Forbidden Fortress, play in demos, and even put together your figures! The location of the event is East of Seattle, in downtown Redmond.

The venue is an old school that has been converted into a community center, so there should be plenty of parking. Space at the event is limited and we need to know in advance if you are coming to the Seattle Wave 2 Pick-up, so that we can make sure your Wave 2 box is ready ahead of time.
 
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Jee Fu
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Autoduelist wrote:
There's another pick-up event in the WA area. Jason Hill is usually busy with product demos while Scott Hill is out greeting backers. Nevertheless, it might be our last opportunity before the Forbidden Fortress launch to get Jason and Scott's attention for rules questions.

I was considering typing something up that the Hill brothers could ponder during/after the event. I would only get to ask 1-3 questions orally, and often, the Q&A might be forgotten by the end of the evening.

I will have to rely on the community's experts to weigh in on the most important questions and help curate this thread. Off the top of my head, I'm aware of concerns about the following:

This is a good idea. Every year I try not to bog them down too much at Gen Con with Qs about the Rules, but there is much ambiguity and I get tired of having to basically invent how certain rules should interact every single time I play.

We DO have the answers to some of these questions already, but it might be worth asking again (as much as I would hate to risk opposite and competing answers from the official source for same question). There are two important things to remember when asking Rules Questions, no matter what they are and no matter who you're asking:

1) Ask the right question. You want an answer that can applied to any many situations as possible. If you phrase your question to be about Dynamite only, then the answer we get might only apply to Dynamite. There is no way to tell, and this is no good; it just adds to the growing list of specific cases we have to remember, rather than creating an environment that behaves according to the same set of laws no matter what situation we're in. Put another way, Dynamite is not the real issue. The real issue is: Can you give us a comprehensive set of rules about how +Damage interacts with any mechanic in the game - so we don't have ask about every single one - and if so, what are they?

2) Give them specific examples and - this is important - counter-examples, especially when their answers have far reaching implications. For instance, if you ask about the interaction of +Damage and Wound-effects using Dynamite as an example and they say "Yes, +Damage applies to Dynamite" then you MUST say "What about Darkstone Shivs? What about splash damage from the Void Hammer? What about Spinning Kick (which isn't an Attack)? Does this mean the Saloon Girl basically just adds 1 to every single thing she does that results in Wounds of any kind, period? Why or Why Not?" These mechanics all the use the same syntax, so we need to nail down whether or not they're giving us an exception or a rule.


Autoduelist wrote:
1.) Dynamite damage and whether class skills & runes apply to it. Some of this concern was created by the introduction of Inferno Shot for the Outlaw's Sawed-off Shotgun.

This is a big one. But it's really only a example of the larger question: What are the rules for how +Damage affects mechanics that result in Wounds, either via Hits or automatically? The answer to this question (no matter what it is) will surely result in further questions in the same vein, like: What about Endurance - does it effect sources of Wounds that don't come from Hits? What about Large Monster XP - you have to do Hits to them to gain the full amount, so do mechanics like Dynamite and Darkstone Shivs only give a tiny bit of XP? How does this interact with items like Void Hood, which allows saves even if the source of the Damage says that ignore Defense and Willpower - what do you save against if there is no technical mention of a Hit? Is there an implied Hit? If so, how many are there and does this interact with +Damage? Do implied Hits get help from +Damage? Does +Damage work differently when the Enemies have it? The rabbit hole goes deep.


Autoduelist wrote:
2.) Questions about whether other classes can use restricted items that are only restrictive because of the purchase location (Smuggler's Den, Sheriff's Office).

I'm fairly confident that the answer to this is that all the Items in the Class-Only areas have an implied "Class-Only" tag on them. But you can ask. Again, make sure your phrasing is precise so they know what you're talking about. And as I said before, give them specific examples: "So, you're saying that because the Holy Robes are in the Holy Only area of the Church, they are Holy Only even tho it doesn't say that under the specific Item?" You can contrast this with asking about Law Heroes using the Items bought at the Smuggler's Den that are NOT in the restricted areas, as long as someone else buys it for them. It's a related issue with similar mechanics but one important difference, so its a good way to get a 360-degree answer. If they tell you that the Class-Only-Area items are Class-Only but that the Law Man can't use Inferno Shot if another Hero gives it to them, you must ask why. We need to know if ALL Items in the Smuggler's Den have an implied "No Law Heroes" tag. We can then apply that ruling to Sheriff's Station for Outlaw Heroes.


Autoduelist wrote:
3.) The loose wording of gain Sanity/Grit on some travel and location events and whether they are permanent increases or simply restoring existing damage a character may already have. Also, damage in town sometimes carries over to the next adventure, while other forms of damage don't mention this requirement, so does that damage go away at the start of the next adventure?

I'm confident about these ones as well. If the wording is "Gain/Lose X Health/Sanity", then it's a permanent change. The exception to this is the Encounter A Crack in Space that Jason had to come errata personally. It says "Lose D8 Sanity" but it was meant to be "Take D8 Sanity Damage ignoring Willpower".

In regard to Town, I believe that all Wounds/Sanity Damage gained in Town is meant to carry over to the next Adventure. This is more implied than stated, because there rules don't say you're restored to full Health/Sanity at the beginning of an Adventure (like they do at the end), so it follows logically that you simple keep them. Any specific mention of carrying them over to the next Adventure is simply a redundant reminder.


Autoduelist wrote:
4.) Confusion over the inconsistency of "hits ignoring Defense" vs. "Automatic Hits" vs. "Wound" effects.

Ideally, this would be included in the first question. I'm of the opinion of that Wounds and Damage are functionally the same. I hold this opinion because there is no "Wounds" version of Sanity Damage. This tells me that either FFP is being redundant (for whatever reason) or that a previous version of the game DID have a difference and that the Rules copy didn't get updated to reflect moving away from that model. That being said, I DO believe that the "+Damage" mechanic only applies to Wounds that result from explicit Hits/Horror Hits (not implied Hits).


Autoduelist wrote:

5.) Questions about how the High Noon shootout impacts possee members with the "for the next adventure" effects (BTW - some of the scenario rules are on the Daily Town Event card).

I asked Jason about this directly at Gen Con last year. His answer was tentative, but that's kinda par for the course because Cons are mega-stressful for the vendors; so, you gotta cut em a little slack. He said "at the moment my thinking is that if you have a 'for/until-the-end-of the next Adventure' ability and you don't get the opportunity to use it in a Town Mission, you can keep it for the next missions." This is far from comprehensive - as Jason well knows - but it's something. Feel free to ask for something more concrete (specific examples ftw).


Autoduelist wrote:
6.) Can Grit be used for Location Event and Level Up Bonus re-rolls?

Level-Ups is definitely No - you can tell because the new Heroes rules specifically say this. Location Events is more ambiguous (although I believe this is "no" as well). But this is a perfect example of asking the right question. What we really want is comprehensive rules for what can/cannot be gritted that doesn't require a giant case-by-case list for every single roll in the game. Definitely ask them when THAT's coming out. It's the biggest hole in the rules, and it's been there for 3 years.

I wish you luck in this.

- Jee

P.S. Got your PM - I am compiling a list.
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Neil Edmonds
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Thanks Jee. I'm familiar with being specific in my error reports because I've worked on software projects. Vague/unclear complaints leaves too much to chance - the skill of the developer, interest in investigating/solving the problem, product deadlines, etc. You basically have to assume that only the things you directly mention will be investigated and fixed. If there are 8 broken things and you only mentioned 5, typically speaking, only the 5 things get fixed.

Just to help set everyone's expectations:

- I don't have regular physical access to the game components.

- I'll review threads I'm directed towards that illustrate problems or provide answers, but I'm not going to deep-dive the forums looking for additional examples. So if someone has a burning desire to get an answer to a question, post it here or geek mail me.

- Feel free to chime in if a question's already been answered or you've discovered a new wrinkle to the problem being posed.

- Jason and Scott are very busy people, so we have to assume they're not going to spend time investigating and reworking parts of the game. Questions should be specific and targeted.

Example: The rules say Grit may not be used in these circumstances <list specifics>. What about these cases <things community wants addressed>? Are there any other cases we're missing? [It sometimes helps to pose an open-ended question at the end to encourage thought before replying.]

- I'll see if I can get a draft document posted before the event for comment.
 
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Neil Edmonds
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I've updated the thread to include everything in a single post with headings. Please delete any replies on the thread so I'll know the poster's question was addressed.
 
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