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Subject: Tunnelling Rules Clarifications rss

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J A
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I had one or two rules clarifications requests following our play today regarding the Dwarves' tunnelling ability.

The TM FAQ states:
"Can I Tunnel or Fly to a Terrain space without transforming it or building a Dwelling?

No, you must take the Transform and Build action to use this ability and get the VP, which means you must transform and/or build."

I'm a little confused about this ability. The FAQ clearly says that a player may either transform or build a dwelling on the target hex, or do both, to gain the vp. But the iconography on the Dwarves' faction mat seems to suggest that a "build" is necessary. Do I gain the vp even if I do not build, and just "transform" (apply at least 1 spade to that space)?

If I tunnel from one structure to a space and build a D there, the structures in those 2 spaces are considered to be indirectly adjacent for the purposes of endgame Area scoring. This may seem like a silly question, but how does one keep track of which structures separated by 1 space are connected as a result of tunnelling, and which are not? Does one just have to remember?

Many thanks!
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Daniel Corban
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Caylusboy wrote:
This may seem like a silly question, but how does one keep track of which structures separated by 1 space are connected as a result of tunnelling, and which are not? Does one just have to remember?

All dwarves buildings separated by a single space are considered adjacent for end-game scoring.

As for your first question, I do not know the "official" answer, but we have considered this in our games and play that you must build.
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Caylusboy wrote:
The TM FAQ states:
"Can I Tunnel or Fly to a Terrain space without transforming it or building a Dwelling?

No, you must take the Transform and Build action to use this ability and get the VP, which means you must transform and/or build."

I'm a little confused about this ability. The FAQ clearly says that a player may either transform or build a dwelling on the target hex, or do both, to gain the vp. But the iconography on the Dwarves' faction mat seems to suggest that a "build" is necessary. Do I gain the vp even if I do not build, and just "transform" (apply at least 1 spade to that space)?


You may do a tunnel action that is just terraform. You do not need to build to get vp. This is quite strong because if you max your digging and have your stronghold built you can tunnel spending just 2 workers, 1 to terraform and 1 to tunnel and gain 4 points effectively giving you a minimum conversion rate of 2 vp per worker at the end of the game if you have a pair.

Quote:
If I tunnel from one structure to a space and build a D there, the structures in those 2 spaces are considered to be indirectly adjacent for the purposes of endgame Area scoring. This may seem like a silly question, but how does one keep track of which structures separated by 1 space are connected as a result of tunneling, and which are not? Does one just have to remember?


Game has no memory, the only thing the game cares is if 2 dwellings could reach each other via tunneling. If they can they are considered connected at end of game.
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J A
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dcorban wrote:
Caylusboy wrote:
This may seem like a silly question, but how does one keep track of which structures separated by 1 space are connected as a result of tunnelling, and which are not? Does one just have to remember?

All dwarves buildings separated by a single space are considered adjacent for end-game scoring.


Wha? I believed that for two Dwarf structures separated by 1 space to be considered connected, one had to build the one by having tunnelled from the other.
Are you saying that any 2 Dwarvish structures separated by 1 space at endgame, tunnelling or no tunnelling, are indirectly adjacent?!? Woah, I'm really glad I posted with my question to clear that up!


allstar64 wrote:
You may do a tunnel action that is just terraform. You do not need to build to get vp. This is quite strong because if you max your digging and have your stronghold built you can tunnel spending just 2 workers, 1 to terraform and 1 to tunnel and gain 4 points effectively giving you a minimum conversion rate of 2 vp per worker at the end of the game if you have a pair.

Yeah, if a Dwarf player has FAV11 in a round when the dwelling scoring tile is out, that amounts to 8 vp per tunnel, that seems quite powerful!
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Daniel Corban
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Precisely why we have never allowed it in our games, but to each his own.
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Luke J
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As your group gets more skilled, you will no longer find this ability to be overpowered.
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Iori Yagami
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Alternatively, if you're weak player enough, it won't matter, since you'll always be out of resources. (Goddaym, this game is the emulator of IRL - short on cash, wants exceed possibilities, scarcity and general unfulfilled plans - bad plans or good plan blasted by intervening opp move.)
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Robert
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dcorban wrote:
Precisely why we have never allowed it in our games, but to each his own.
ljwoodw wrote:
As your group gets more skilled, you will no longer find this ability to be overpowered.
I applaud you for this nice and restrained reply - friendly yet pointing out the main issue with the original statement.
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Grant
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Caylusboy wrote:
dcorban wrote:
Caylusboy wrote:
This may seem like a silly question, but how does one keep track of which structures separated by 1 space are connected as a result of tunnelling, and which are not? Does one just have to remember?

All dwarves buildings separated by a single space are considered adjacent for end-game scoring.


Wha? I believed that for two Dwarf structures separated by 1 space to be considered connected, one had to build the one by having tunnelled from the other.
Are you saying that any 2 Dwarvish structures separated by 1 space at endgame, tunnelling or no tunnelling, are indirectly adjacent?!? Woah, I'm really glad I posted with my question to clear that up!

Yes, any two dwarf structures separated by one hex are considered indirectly adjacent for end-game scoring, regardless of whether a tunnel was ever used between them during the game.
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Grant
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dcorban wrote:
Precisely why we have never allowed it in our games, but to each his own.

Rather than continuing to muddy the waters of the rules forum with your house rules you could instead edit your original response to contain the correct answer, or at least remove your wrong answer, considering it's the very first reply someone will see when searching for this question?
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ljwoodw wrote:
As your group gets more skilled, you will no longer find this ability to be overpowered.

This thread is already derailed beyond belief, so I can't resist saying how impressed I am that, in the past four years, virtually every single one of your 220 BGG posts have been in the Terra Mystica forum. That is dedication.
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grant5 wrote:
Yes, any two dwarf structures separated by one hex are considered indirectly adjacent for end-game scoring, regardless of whether a tunnel was ever used between them during the game.


@grant5: thank you for your answer! I realize now that I had misunderstood important aspects of this faction's abilities.
Although I think the game's rules are an exemplar of clarity and thoroughness, there is room for misinterpretation and error. I suspect there are not a few people out there who play this popular game and unwittingly commit minor rules errors... Thank goodness for the awesome TM FAQ and excellent help by experienced TM players! I, for one, am sincerely grateful for it thumbsup

Just to provide a few examples as an exercise to ensure that I've correctly understood tunnelling, if that's ok:

1. I can tunnel from G1 to F2 (forest), and dig 1 to my home color --> I net 4vp. On my next turn, I tunnel again from G1 to F2, and build there --> I net another 4vp.

2. Dwarves can tunnel (to gain vp) once per turn. So for example, if I'm tunnelling from I9 to I7, and I've maxed my digging and unlocked mu SH ability, on my turn I could transform I7 one step towards my home color to net 4vp, and on my next turn dig another step to grey to net another 4vp, and on yet another turn build on I7 to net another 4vp.

So transforming and building incrementally on I7 by using tunnelling would net me a bonus of 12 vp, at an added cost of only 2W, as compared to transforming and building in I7 in a single turn to net only 4vp? Wow!

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Grant
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Caylusboy wrote:
grant5 wrote:
Yes, any two dwarf structures separated by one hex are considered indirectly adjacent for end-game scoring, regardless of whether a tunnel was ever used between them during the game.


@grant5: thank you for your answer! I realize now that I had misunderstood important aspects of this faction's abilities.
Although I think the game's rules are an exemplar of clarity and thoroughness, there is room for misinterpretation and error. I suspect there are not a few people out there who play this popular game and unwittingly commit minor rules errors... Thank goodness for the awesome TM FAQ and excellent help by experienced TM players! I, for one, am sincerely grateful for it thumbsup

Just to provide a few examples as an exercise to ensure that I've correctly understood tunnelling, if that's ok:

1. I can tunnel from G1 to F2 (forest), and dig 1 to my home color --> I net 4vp. On my next turn, I tunnel again from G1 to F2, and build there --> I net another 4vp.

2. Dwarves can tunnel (to gain vp) once per turn. So for example, if I'm tunnelling from I9 to I7, and I've maxed my digging and unlocked mu SH ability, on my turn I could transform I7 one step towards my home color to net 4vp, and on my next turn dig another step to grey to net another 4vp, and on yet another turn build on I7 to net another 4vp.

So transforming and building incrementally on I7 by using tunnelling would net me a bonus of 12 vp, at an added cost of only 2W, as compared to transforming and building in I7 in a single turn to net only 4vp? Wow!


Yep, you've got it all right!
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Caylusboy wrote:

1. I can tunnel from G1 to F2 (forest), and dig 1 to my home color --> I net 4vp. On my next turn, I tunnel again from G1 to F2, and build there --> I net another 4vp.

This would work.

Caylusboy wrote:
2. Dwarves can tunnel (to gain vp) once per turn. So for example, if I'm tunnelling from I9 to I7, and I've maxed my digging and unlocked mu SH ability, on my turn I could transform I7 one step towards my home color to net 4vp, and on my next turn dig another step to grey to net another 4vp, and on yet another turn build on I7 to net another 4vp.

So transforming and building incrementally on I7 by using tunnelling would net me a bonus of 12 vp, at an added cost of only 2W, as compared to transforming and building in I7 in a single turn to net only 4vp? Wow!


Basically yes.
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dcorban wrote:
ljwoodw wrote:
As your group gets more skilled, you will no longer find this ability to be overpowered.

This thread is already derailed beyond belief, so I can't resist saying how impressed I am that, in the past four years, virtually every single one of your 220 BGG posts have been in the Terra Mystica forum. That is dedication.


Well, I'm kind of embarrassed that anyone has looked... blush

There are a couple of games I've played more, but none with the combination of strategic depth and community as this one.
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allstar64 wrote:

Caylusboy wrote:
2. Dwarves can tunnel (to gain vp) once per turn. So for example, if I'm tunnelling from I9 to I7, and I've maxed my digging and unlocked mu SH ability, on my turn I could transform I7 one step towards my home color to net 4vp, and on my next turn dig another step to grey to net another 4vp, and on yet another turn build on I7 to net another 4vp.

So transforming and building incrementally on I7 by using tunnelling would net me a bonus of 12 vp, at an added cost of only 2W, as compared to transforming and building in I7 in a single turn to net only 4vp? Wow!


Basically yes.


Correction: once per action. I had to read the rulebook again, I thought we played something wrong.
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Action and turn are nearly synonymous though, aren't they? I can only think of the CM stronghold as an exception...
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Grant
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jsnmthw wrote:
Action and turn are nearly synonymous though, aren't they? I can only think of the CM stronghold as an exception...

I don't think the game uses the term "turn," there are actions and rounds. You meant turn to mean an action, but it seems like wallwaster thought you were using it to mean round.
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I have one question on the same ability, so I do not open a new thread. In case that I want to terrafrm/build on tile that is next to one of my buildings and also 1 space away from another of my buildings, may I use the tunnel ability?
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S0laris wrote:
I have one question on the same ability, so I do not open a new thread. In case that I want to terrafrm/build on tile that is next to one of my buildings and also 1 space away from another of my buildings, may I use the tunnel ability?
No. You cannot tunnel if it's not needed, i.e. when you have a building next to the target hex. There is no choice.

This holds true in analogy for Fakirs' carpet flight.

The FAQ has quite a few Q&A on tunnels and carpet flight: *click*.
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grant5 wrote:
jsnmthw wrote:
Action and turn are nearly synonymous though, aren't they? I can only think of the CM stronghold as an exception...

I don't think the game uses the term "turn," there are actions and rounds. You meant turn to mean an action, but it seems like wallwaster thought you were using it to mean round.


Exactly, sorry, my bad. It just sounded so weird when worded this way.
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