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Subject: Support cards rss

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Steve Malczak
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Support Cards in the basic set. So I have now played quite a few games using both RAW and the house rule of 33% of the deck’s points must be spent on Support Cards. I feel like I’m starting to form some semi-experienced opinions on the support cards. Here are some thoughts based on what we have played so far:

• Entrenched – haven’t really found a solid use for it. It’s very situational and it has been used once to good effect, but by and large we typically don’t add this one anymore
• Ammo – fantastic card…2 AP to take 2 shots. This one can be a game decider with a bit of luck
• Sustained Fire – Meh…hasn’t seen much use. It’s nice to have, and we still play it when using the support minimum, but pretty underwhelming
• Sticky Bomb – like the idea, never had a chance to use it. Every time I’ve had it in my hand I’ve never been able to get an infantry unit close enough to make use of it….jury is still out
• Paratrooper – fair use so far. It was better when we thought you could start with an HMG deployed. As it is, it has taken out an occasional tank, critical unit with a surprise bazoonak. Not sure it’s worth the points though
• Promotion – like the idea, but again, not overly useful in practice. Units are just too fragile to waste a card buffing it for a subsequent turn. All too often the unit is killed before it can make use of it. Maybe if it also reduced the enemy attacks by +1/+1 or something?
• Under Suppression Fire – pretty useless…been removed from current decks
• Fire – never used it. Building destruction seem pretty pointless.
• Anti-tank Mine/Ant-Personnel Mine – can also be game-changers by taking out a critical unit and/or severing a supply line. Fairly expensive but feel balanced
• Luck – another fantastic card…1 point for essentially a 2nd shot. Can’t go wrong. Now also ruled to make an enemy re-roll a successful roll! I’d take 4 or more if I could..
• Conflicting Order – ‘counter-spell’…should be more useful than it is, but mostly the cost is too high to just leave 3 AP laying around.
• Overheat – Doesn’t get much use. Maybe if it allows a HMG or Mortar to be flipped to the unready side? Then it might get played. But only for flippables? Not useful enough
• Rapid Fire – also seems pretty pointless. Haven’t seen a need to fire a MG or whatnot two turns in a row to make the card’s opportunity cost pay off. Not in any decks
• Hit – seems balanced. Very powerful in the right situation, but expensive. I typically put at least one in when playing with the support minimum
• General – powerful and versatile. At the very least it’s free AP if you pick Marshal/Rommel. Very useful with all of the KS generals
• Espionage – too expensive for what it does. Loss of a card in exchange for a card and 4 AP doesn’t seem useful – removed from decks

What are other folks’ thoughts on the basic support cards?
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Stephan Beal
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Talenn wrote:
• Under Suppression Fire – pretty useless…been removed from current decks


That card got mistranslated, sorely reducing its usability. See thread 1784504. In short, its duration was mistranslated as until the end of the current turn, instead of one complete turn. Note, however, that this card does not provide the same effect as suppressing fire, so it's confusingly named.

Talenn wrote:
What are other folks’ thoughts on the basic support cards?


i haven't played nearly as many sessions as you, but i agree with everything you said. i'll just note that you should maybe reconsider Under Suppression Fire using the errata mentioned above.
 
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Steve Malczak
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Thanks for the input. We've been playing it correctly by default ( I guess we never noticed that the actual wording weakened the card).

But even preventing movement on the opponent's turn leaves it a pretty weak card IMO. There just haven't been that many times where that is critical and certainly hasn't been worth 1AP and 1 card draw.

My evaluations are based on the (perceived) effect in relation to both AP cost AND card cost. You only draw 2/turn so if the deck is bloated with numerous 'weak' cards, you could soon find yourself at a severe disadvantage (ie, would you rather draw 'Under Suppressing Fire' or a unit?).

It was that evaluation that caused us to put in the 1/3rd rule in the first place. After the first few games with the default rules, most of the support cards had disappeared from our decks. There was rarely a situation where another unit wasn't superior to the effect of a support card. A unit gives you firepower, hit points (something else the enemy has to chew through), and presence for Supply Lines. In order for a support card to be worth it, it would need to seriously change the balance of what is on the table (or potentially do so). Given the card 'cost' AND the AP cost, most went out the window.

WITH the 1/3 rule, it opens up some interesting deck-building since you can choose to be more card efficient (fewer, more expensive Support card to hit the 1/3 minimum earlier) but that comes at the cost of having fewer usable support cards and could lead to a clogged hand of required discards. You also have to be more efficient with your unit choices since again, clogging it up with too many expensive units (or even too many cheap units!) often hurts you. A good balanced approach works best.

I have only cracked the surface of all the of the expansion cards so I'm looking forward to what they bring to the game.

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Jose Manuel Moreno Ramos
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Talenn wrote:

• Promotion – like the idea, but again, not overly useful in practice. Units are just too fragile to waste a card buffing it for a subsequent turn. All too often the unit is killed before it can make use of it. Maybe if it also reduced the enemy attacks by +1/+1 or something?


Please, take into account that you can deploy this car for free...so although units often are so fragile, you don't pay AP for deploy it. You only pay to get them in your deck, and it isn't an expensive card.
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Steve Malczak
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jmkinki wrote:
Talenn wrote:

• Promotion – like the idea, but again, not overly useful in practice. Units are just too fragile to waste a card buffing it for a subsequent turn. All too often the unit is killed before it can make use of it. Maybe if it also reduced the enemy attacks by +1/+1 or something?


Please, take into account that you can deploy this car for free...so although units often are so fragile, you don't pay AP for deploy it. You only pay to get them in your deck, and it isn't an expensive card.


Yep, but it is still a card that you have to draw. As I said above, you only draw 2/turn so card draw is a VERY limited resource. What it comes down to is opportunity cost...is there another card that you would rather have drawn than this one? For Promotion, the vast majority of the time, the answer would be yes...I'd rather have something else in my hand instead.

The true 'cost' of a card is three-fold:

1) AP Cost to put in deck
2) AP Cost to deploy
3) Card cost in drawing that card. On any given turn, Promotion (if drawn) would be 50% of your draw allotment for the turn...
 
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Stephan Beal
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Talenn wrote:
3) Card cost in drawing that card. On any given turn, Promotion (if drawn) would be 50% of your draw allotment for the turn...


Only 20% if you're an AI player .
 
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Joe Robinson
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I think you're underestimating how powerful modifying the Impact rating can be. That's essentially a, what, 10% extra chance of landing a hit? And landing a hit either: denies the enemy a whole activation or at the very least RAISES their own impact score making it harder for them to land a hit.

I'm sure someone smarter than me can do the math between having two units at a 60% hit chance and one unit at a 70% hit chance, but in a game that's all about dice rolling I feel lowering your Impact rating is just as potent as having multiple units on the field, esp. since Promotion is free to play.

Other than that I have similar opinions to you on most of them.

I find the General card and Generals to be quite problematic at the moment, but I'm thinking of starting a new thread for that.
 
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Guillaume Gaudé
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DigitalEccentric wrote:
I think you're underestimating how powerful modifying the Impact rating can be.


ABSOLUTELY !
 
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Steve Malczak
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DigitalEccentric wrote:
I think you're underestimating how powerful modifying the Impact rating can be. That's essentially a, what, 10% extra chance of landing a hit? And landing a hit either: denies the enemy a whole activation or at the very least RAISES their own impact score making it harder for them to land a hit.

I'm sure someone smarter than me can do the math between having two units at a 60% hit chance and one unit at a 70% hit chance, but in a game that's all about dice rolling I feel lowering your Impact rating is just as potent as having multiple units on the field, esp. since Promotion is free to play.

Other than that I have similar opinions to you on most of them.

I find the General card and Generals to be quite problematic at the moment, but I'm thinking of starting a new thread for that.


Modifying the Impact chance is fairly powerful (depending on the unit, it could be a 20-30% increase in hit chance). But my issue with 'Promotion' is that the unit has to survive until the following fire phase to use it. Even if it does so, the odds of surviving for multiple shots are fairly low (at least in our games...unit mortality is quite high in our experience). So if it's a choice between increasing Impact chance by 2 for one turn or taking two shots or increasing impact/crit chance by 1, but only for following rounds, I think the first two options tend to be better.

Don't get me wrong, we still use Promotion here and there when playing with the 1/3 rule, but without we would not use the card whereas we would still use Ammo. YMMV
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