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Subject: kickstarter new way of life? rss

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Doug Moore
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so is the new way to do every kickstarter game is to have the option for several expansions?
back in the old day you got a game and the expansion was developed usually a few years later.

just seems to me like they take stuff out of the game just to make it an "expansion".

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Dustin
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lorddog wrote:
so is the new way to do every kickstarter game is to have the option for several expansions?
back in the old day you got a game and the expansion was developed usually a few years later.

just seems to me like they take stuff out of the game just to make it an "expansion".


As far as I know they've been showing it off for awhile without this stuff. The only thing taken out was Pegasus.

I love all the stuff we are getting with the game. But I do also miss the days of getting expansions a year later to reignite a game.
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James Mathias
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I don't mind expansion add-ons.

I do mind breaking an expansion into 7 stretch goals.
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Dustin
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jmathias wrote:
I don't mind expansion add-ons.

I do mind breaking an expansion into 7 stretch goals.


Why is that. They said upfront it would be. A full expansion is amazing as a free stretch goal.

I think they would have less complaints if they just made the expansion 1 goal, with the same jump in price.
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Chris Steele
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Expansions normally only make sense if you know your base game has enough interest to justify an expansion. So, imo, expansions are the best kinds of stretch goals. If the base doesn't have a good enough following, it can't justify the expansion. But if it does, expand away!

As for whether Kickstarter campaigns take stuff out to make stretch goals of them - probably, but I don't think that's a bad thing either. It's marketing and it works. Can't blame people for following a proven formula. Sure people can complain "I'm not backing because they're trying to manipulating me." But that doesn't stop CMON from making millions every time they use their formula.
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jmathias wrote:
I don't mind expansion add-ons.

I do mind breaking an expansion into 7 stretch goals.


Meh, by the time they published those 7 goals we had already passed them all. So big whoop, you are complaining about a cosmetic thing for the sake of complaining.
 
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James Mathias
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SeerMagic wrote:
jmathias wrote:
I don't mind expansion add-ons.

I do mind breaking an expansion into 7 stretch goals.


Why is that. They said upfront it would be. A full expansion is amazing as a free stretch goal.

I think they would have less complaints if they just made the expansion 1 goal, with the same jump in price.


$250k for a "small" expansion is a giant leap, even with economies of scale being calculated in. It doesn't cost nearly 4 times as much to provide 6 minis, 5 tokens, 10 cards, a small board and 1 monument bigature, than it costs to provide the entire base game.

Let's assume the expansion would have been $25 MSRP as an add on, currently that would be around $160k to give a copy to every person, but that isn't the actual cost of the expansion to produce, and the more they print the "cheaper" it gets per unit.

It just feels, to me, when companies do it this way that it's not completely transparent. And KS is supposed to be us helping folks make a dream come true, not us helping companies print money, and when they do it this way, that is how it feels, to me.

I'm all for making a profit, but, let's be reasonable with the SG gaps.
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James Mathias
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Ithkrall wrote:
jmathias wrote:
I don't mind expansion add-ons.

I do mind breaking an expansion into 7 stretch goals.


Meh, by the time they published those 7 goals we had already passed them all. So big whoop, you are complaining about a cosmetic thing for the sake of complaining.


Ok, cool!
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Dustin
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steele22374 wrote:
Expansions normally only make sense if you know your base game has enough interest to justify an expansion. So, imo, expansions are the best kinds of stretch goals. If the base doesn't have a good enough following, it can't justify the expansion. But if it does, expand away!


Excellent point.
 
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Pekka V
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jmathias wrote:
I don't mind expansion add-ons.

I do mind breaking an expansion into 7 stretch goals.


Yep, I almost want to cancel my pledge.
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Peter Bowie
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Economy of scale is mostly relevant for the jump from "niche game with small amount of units produced" (Splotter games) to "moderately mainstream game" (average retail game). Price drops past that are marginal, until you start getting into "crazy amount of units sold" territory (Monopoly).

Retailers typically buy games at 3/5th of the MSRP, so that's the number that remains profitable for the creators, and that extra 2/5ths, is how the majority of SGs are funded. Effectively, you're paying for the SGs with your pledge total already.

Because of that, there's a finite budget KS creators are working with, and a finite amount of content they can offer. Huge funding? Doesn't actually matter than much. Maybe it'll contribute to an extra mini or two. But they're running a KS. They need to keep the drama and excitement going, give people the buzz of unlocking a new goal. How to do that with limited content? Bigger gaps, splitting expansions.

Of course, varies. Some Kickstarters will discount more (Scythe) and offer less SGs. Some Kickstarters with charge more (CMoN, probably) and have lots of SGs. Some Kickstarters just have generous creators (Gloomhaven) who want to pack the box full of content.
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rauhwelt wrote:
jmathias wrote:
I don't mind expansion add-ons.

I do mind breaking an expansion into 7 stretch goals.


Yep, I almost want to cancel my pledge.


Why, we had passed them by the time they had published them. It's irrelevant that they put them up as 7 parts as it was done.

This seems like the strangest triviality to get bent out of shape over.
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Maurizio Briosi
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SeerMagic wrote:
jmathias wrote:
I don't mind expansion add-ons.

I do mind breaking an expansion into 7 stretch goals.


Why is that. They said upfront it would be. A full expansion is amazing as a free stretch goal.

I think they would have less complaints if they just made the expansion 1 goal, with the same jump in price.


The major thing is...if somehow (now it's early, but what of the "community driven expansion") the founding doesn't reach all the way to unlock the full expansion, what do we get? Some minis without gameplay, half an expansion?

7 stretch goals doesn't really makes sense, what do they accomplish? Make so that it seems there are more things unlocked?

The major reason I do not really like stretchgoals as they are now, is that they have "many things prepared" like the 5-6 player...but how many money do they have to make to unlock it? They wait to put them out either to gauge how much of the flow of money makes sense to put the distance between stretchgoals (instead of giving a value to the goal beforehand) and/or to generate people that come back to visit the page.
 
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Doug Moore
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pulling things out for the stretch goals doesn't bother me and I just assume that is how it is done somewhat.

it is just the last 2 years or so it seems to have gone crazy with a new game on kickstarter and it has 2-3 expansions for sale with it.

I can totally see an old game going back up and them adding 1-2 new expansions plus a redone game.

but with all this craze going on with new games with expansions coming out at the same time seems exploitive to me. my solo voice has no weight on the matter. I have not bought several new games because of this thou.

but looking at the marketing that just came out for this game they showed 3 expansions for us to buy? what the heck
 
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Joey Nazzari
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Plenty of other Kickstarter projects (especially CMON) do the same exact thing where they take a bunch of stretch goals, and then put it in a box which they then sell at retail later on, but backers get free. The space between those goals is usually a lot bigger then 40k. I liked that they asked which of the two would be free, and just unlocked it all at the same time instead of stretching it over multiple days.

This campaign is already much bigger then they thought it would be, and they have said as much. I am pretty impressed with how quick and responsive they have been. I have been in many campaigns where updates were few and far between except when a SG was it. 19 days to go, plenty of more stuff to be unlocked (show me that 5-6 expansion), hope for some more good stuff.

 
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Doug Moore
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expansions
1) Terrain
2) Lord of the sun
3a) Hephaestus - Smith God
3b) Kronos rebellion 
3c) Atlas overload
 
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Paulo Renato
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I do mind about having us vote to choose SG and then the losing part is turned into an Add-On... that I don't like a little bit...

The game is racking up so much more money than they need it that all these votes should be turned into SG, some could be Temporary exclusives to the KS and would not be in the core box in retail and could be sold separately later.

I know it doesn't make a difference to the publisher but I'm probably going to be dropping out because of this...

I'm spending more than €150 and now there's one add-on for €23 more and probably won't stop there...

Everything looks amazing but I really hate these add-on schemes...

It's really a shame... I think they are missing a chance to really reward the KS backers by turning what should be SG into add-ons!
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Nielson Jugalbot
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lorddog wrote:
expansions
1) Terrain
2) Lord of the sun
3a) Hephaestus - Smith God
3b) Kronos rebellion 
3c) Atlas overload


The last SGE will be kickstarter exclusive as it will be developed with all the inputs from the backers. It isn't something you'd buy. Considering the strategy, it'll keep most people invested aside from those that complained about how they broke down the Apollo/Hades expansion. As it stands, terrain is just cosmetic which is calculated in the Mythic with a little discount to push for sundrop and the art book. It cost money to produce those temples. If you look at it closely, their planned stretch goals initially is probably about cosmetics seeing that what weve unlocked so far are alternate models for the priests and hoplites. As someone else mentioned, theres 19 days to go and they've already started with the last SG as it will take time to develop and playtest.

As far I am concerned, they're on the right track.
 
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Mouldy Banana
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lorddog wrote:
but with all this craze going on with new games with expansions coming out at the same time seems exploitive to me. my solo voice has no weight on the matter. I have not bought several new games because of this thou.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. It seems publishers design a game, then see which parts they can break out of it and sell as "expansions" and leave just enough "base" game so it isn't broken.
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Pieter Buntinx
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mouldybanana wrote:
lorddog wrote:
but with all this craze going on with new games with expansions coming out at the same time seems exploitive to me. my solo voice has no weight on the matter. I have not bought several new games because of this thou.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. It seems publishers design a game, then see which parts they can break out of it and sell as "expansions" and leave just enough "base" game so it isn't broken.


And what's wrong with that? Designers and publishers need to make money too. As long as the base game is playable without the expansions, I have no problem with this at all.
 
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Ken
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krotznapopulov wrote:
mouldybanana wrote:
lorddog wrote:
but with all this craze going on with new games with expansions coming out at the same time seems exploitive to me. my solo voice has no weight on the matter. I have not bought several new games because of this thou.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. It seems publishers design a game, then see which parts they can break out of it and sell as "expansions" and leave just enough "base" game so it isn't broken.


And what's wrong with that? Designers and publishers need to make money too. As long as the base game is playable without the expansions, I have no problem with this at all.


Just because the base game isn't technically broken, it is often as close to unplayable, boring or having little replay value as you might get. Yes, I have seen that happen. A core game is barely playable because they know once you're in you'll spend three times as much making the game to what it should have been in the first place.

And you're right. There's nothing wrong with that, except that some people buy the core thinking it is complete only to find they have been mislead. That's the part that isn't right.
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Mouldy Banana
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krotznapopulov wrote:
And what's wrong with that? Designers and publishers need to make money too.
Are you saying that selling a complete game does not make any money? Or not enough money?

Quote:
As long as the base game is playable without the expansions, I have no problem with this at all.
Playable is a rather low benchmark - any random bunch of components can be made "playable" according to a bunch of rules. Personally I would go for enjoyable.
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Pieter Buntinx
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mouldybanana wrote:
krotznapopulov wrote:
And what's wrong with that? Designers and publishers need to make money too.
Are you saying that selling a complete game does not make any money? Or not enough money?


It depends on your definition of 'complete'. Though I will concede that enjoyable is a better criterium than just playable.
Expansions generate additional sales. You can't blame a company for wanting to earn some extra cash, especially smaller companies.

I've backed several kickstarters by now, and some had huge amounts of expansions. None of them actually 'required' any of those to be playable or enjoyable.
Cthulhu Wars? We still regularly play with just the four base-game factions. I don't even have any of the additional maps.
Blood Rage: Bought it retail, and I feel it's complete. Even though there are several expansions available.
Or one of the most expansion-happy games I own: Shadows of Brimstone. I haven't received any expansions yet, and I still enjoy the game immensely.

What I mean is: just because a game has expansions doesn't mean it's incomplete. Expansions generate additional sales, but again, as long as they aren't needed to play (or enjoy) the base game, I have no problem with that.
 
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Ken
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krotznapopulov wrote:
What I mean is: just because a game has expansions doesn't mean it's incomplete. Expansions generate additional sales, but again, as long as they aren't needed to play (or enjoy) the base game, I have no problem with that.


I would agree. On the other hand it seems to me that I've seen games that upon release screamed for an expansion to be complete. The one that comes to mind actually have both the game and expansion announced at almost the same time. It appeared as though the designers know the game was short.

The difference here that I'm seeing is that in some well established games they come out with expansions. Here, and in a few others, we have expansions that themselves are not complete* released at the same time as the game. This begs the questions: are these play tested; how much to they impact the game; will the game feel complete without it; how much replay value is lost without it. We just don't know because they are released at the same time.

Don't get me wrong, I'm just pointing out what I see. It looks like a good game. The figures look great. But it does appear that the publisher planned to break out part the core release into multiple stretch goals. That's fine, it just doesn't sit well with everyone. Me? I'm okay with it if they all get released. My bother are the add-ons. How many of these will I really wish to have and how much more will I care to spend before I just cancel the pledge? Again, not a complaint, that's on me and how I purchase. For them, it is just one of several marketing strategies and the one they've opted to go with.



* We are getting a box for expansions before there are enough expansions to fill it. Are there other expansions they planned which are waiting to drop to boost sales.
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Pieter Buntinx
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Ken at Sunrise wrote:
* We are getting a box for expansions before there are enough expansions to fill it. Are there other expansions they planned which are waiting to drop to boost sales.


True, but just because there are more expansion planned doesn't mean they were things that were cut out of the base game. I'll refer again to Shadows of Brimstone which feels quite complete, even without all KS addons (There's probably better examples ).
I'll concede that there are indeed companies that do that, but I'm not feeling that vibe in this campaign.
Except for the fifth player expansion. Its nice that they'll be adding it to the game, but that's something that could've been part of the base game, so I do hope they wont charge us for that.
 
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