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Subject: Box 6 Questions/Clarifications rss

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Jeffrey L
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So we opened up the last box, and I just want to be sure I understand all the rules correctly before our next adventure.

Major End of Game Spoilers--
Spoiler (click to reveal)

1- For set up, am I correct in understanding that we still sit in the same order, but since we don't use the normal title cards, we also don't get the normal extra benefits/enmity that those cards describe?

2- I have noticed some debate about this question, but I wasn't sure if it had been answered: Do remaining secret advisers with a sea chart on their back count as +5 successes for a) everything b) nothing anymore c) only sea exploration or d) other?

3- We need to close the gate to hell to win. From other comments, we need to get the three seals first, yes? But you only need to have them, you don't actually need to use them at the Land of the Damned?

4- After we defeat the Land of the Damned does a) the game immediately end? b) finish out the round? c) Don't worry-- the milestone entry will tell us like last time.

Infernal Deck rules context for next two questions- From the Infernal Deck, we draw one card at the end of each turn. Beyond the Veil cards are put in the storage chest. Horsemen cards are set aside. When the fourth of the same horseman is drawn, it is discarded, and the other three are shuffled back into the deck. At the end of the year, all discarded and set aside face-up infernal cards are shuffled to make a new deck.

5- Am I correct in assuming that the distinction between "Put in the storage chest" and "discarded" is an important one? So any cards in the storage chest don't ever return in the current game, just the discarded ones?

6- Where do the All is Calm, Darkness Triumphant, and the two Vessel cards go when they are played? Dismissed like everything else in the game has been, or discarded/set aside so that they aren't reshuffled in until the end of the year, even when the fourth of each horseman is drawn?

7- The Infernal Hatred token is passed to the next player after drawing a card. It starts with the Emperor, so it basically follows the turn player, yeah? But not quite, since they can immediately discard an adviser to the storage chest to push it farther forward, but that's how it works, right?

8- The only thing having the Infernal Hatred token affects is the second matching horseman cards, right? I guess there could be something in the milestones, but as far as explaining the rules to the other players, there isn't anything I'm missing, is there?

9- I place an adviser I control into the storage chest to pass the Infernal Hatred token. The "Death" Infernal Deck cards instead say to remove advisers from the game. Am I correct in assuming that they both mean the same thing-- these cards are never reshuffled back into the game?

10- Several things can cause the world to burn, which returns the colony to the storage chest. Can you re-build that colony, or is it considered removed from the game?

11- Say we want to play after this game and either Replay the Last Stand or After Hell Version. Do colonies go back to their previous owner, or do we have to rebuild them?

12- Related to those questions, when the world burns, should we return the colonies to the main storage chest, or our own storage chests?


That should about do it, I think.
It's been a wild ride, thanks for your help!
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Dave T
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We just played this Tuesday, so here goes. Be warned that some of your questions are not actually answered by the rules:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
1) We did give benefits to ensure that our leader didn't overrun everyone, but we're playing a pretty friendly game. The cards don't explicitly say.

2) B) nothing, as far as we decided. The symbol only applies to the final island, as far as I could tell.

3) The text doesn't say you *need* the seals, so we didn't actually recover them. However, I would say, having just done this, that requiring the recovery of the seals would make the final game *much* better, so I highly recommend it!

4) Text doesn't say explicitly (previous milestone did), but we decided to end immediately.

5) Correct.

6) Dismissed.

7) No, play proceeds counterclockwise ("to the left") and the token rotates clockwise. It runs against turn order.

8) Correct.

9) Correct.

10) Hard to imagine this coming up, but I'd probably say no, it's just gone.

11) Previous owner -- you essentially reset the game state to be the beginning of the previous game.

12) Personal storage chest (see above).
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Troy Carpenter
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Indiana
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Since you have a recent box 6 question and so do I, I will jump on to your thread.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
Does anyone have a picture of the last island (hell) that they could send me? We played game 15 out on my neighbor's porch. It was epic and nearly 2:30 when we ended and in the light of day I realized we didn't have the inset and I cant find the sticker. Which would presumably show the hell site that we need to close. Great to see some discussion of the last game. Excited to play it.

Other important question: what is the general consensus on the seals? Do you need one to close the gate, or do all three need to be discovered, or is it both, or something else entirely?
 
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Dave T
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I don't have it here, so I can't send a photo, but ...

Spoiler (click to reveal)
the island is only a single site -- the hellgate. There is nothing on it but a picture of a very spooky-looking gate and a standard non-dangerous-site shield with the target value (20) on it. In the opinion of everyone in our group, 20 is way too low, especially considering that you had to hit a 30-dangerous just to discover the island. We all recommend raising the target value to 40, which is easily doable between all the relics, tablets, advisors, upgrades, buildings, and for goodness' sake the seals.

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Rich P
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Sheffield
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icarussc wrote:
I don't have it here, so I can't send a photo, but ...

Spoiler (click to reveal)
the island is only a single site -- the hellgate. There is nothing on it but a picture of a very spooky-looking gate and a standard non-dangerous-site shield with the target value (20) on it. In the opinion of everyone in our group, 20 is way too low, especially considering that you had to hit a 30-dangerous just to discover the island. We all recommend raising the target value to 40, which is easily doable between all the relics, tablets, advisors, upgrades, buildings, and for goodness' sake the seals.



Spoiler (click to reveal)
It seems strange that the site isn't Dangerous. It's the mouth to Hell - sounds pretty dangerous to me!
 
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Chris Willott
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
Quote:
1- For set up, am I correct in understanding that we still sit in the same order, but since we don't use the normal title cards, we also don't get the normal extra benefits/enmity that those cards describe?

Officially, you are not supposed to use the title cards and should not be getting starting bonuses. Which seems odd.

Quote:
2- I have noticed some debate about this question, but I wasn't sure if it had been answered: Do remaining secret advisers with a sea chart on their back count as +5 successes for a) everything b) nothing anymore c) only sea exploration or d) other?

They are Charts (so only good for sea exploration), and should be dismissed after using them as such. If you still have islands to discover, you should be able to use them, but they'd do no good on the final island.

Quote:
3- We need to close the gate to hell to win. From other comments, we need to get the three seals first, yes? But you only need to have them, you don't actually need to use them at the Land of the Damned?

From my personal interpretation of "must recover" I would say you need to recover all three, but you don't have to have them on your ship at Hell (or for that matter, in your possession personally) in order to attempt the gate. It could easily be argued that recovering them is optional, but this makes for an inferior final game.

Quote:
4- After we defeat the Land of the Damned does a) the game immediately end? b) finish out the round? c) Don't worry-- the milestone entry will tell us like last time.

c.


Quote:
5- Am I correct in assuming that the distinction between "Put in the storage chest" and "discarded" is an important one? So any cards in the storage chest don't ever return in the current game, just the discarded ones?

Correct.

Quote:
6- Where do the All is Calm, Darkness Triumphant, and the two Vessel cards go when they are played? Dismissed like everything else in the game has been, or discarded/set aside so that they aren't reshuffled in until the end of the year, even when the fourth of each horseman is drawn?

I don't know why the final game is different, but you DISCARD played infernal cards instead of dismissing. You're correct, they shouldn't be reshuffled with the horsemen, just the turning year. I would also suggest that to make the final game more difficult, you remove All is Calms from the game instead of discarding them. It's far too difficult to lose the final game.

Quote:
7- The Infernal Hatred token is passed to the next player after drawing a card. It starts with the Emperor, so it basically follows the turn player, yeah? But not quite, since they can immediately discard an adviser to the storage chest to push it farther forward, but that's how it works, right?
Correct. It would pass to the lowest-ranked AFTER her infernal draw, then to the next AFTER the infernal draw on their turn, etc., unless and until someone discards an advisor to play hot-potato.

Quote:
8- The only thing having the Infernal Hatred token affects is the second matching horseman cards, right? I guess there could be something in the milestones, but as far as explaining the rules to the other players, there isn't anything I'm missing, is there?
Correct, just the second horsemen.

Quote:
9- I place an adviser I control into the storage chest to pass the Infernal Hatred token. The "Death" Infernal Deck cards instead say to remove advisers from the game. Am I correct in assuming that they both mean the same thing-- these cards are never reshuffled back into the game?
Yup. Exact same thing. Except maybe if you plan to play again after your final game?? In that case there might be a distinction -- but the "play it again" rules sound pretty awful.

Quote:
10- Several things can cause the world to burn, which returns the colony to the storage chest. Can you re-build that colony, or is it considered removed from the game?
I'd say it's gone.

Quote:
11- Say we want to play after this game and either Replay the Last Stand or After Hell Version. Do colonies go back to their previous owner, or do we have to rebuild them?

This is completely unclear from the rules -- but I'd say make a judgment call as a group based on how hard you want your replay to be.

Quote:
12- Related to those questions, when the world burns, should we return the colonies to the main storage chest, or our own storage chests?

Your own won't hurt, particularly if you think you might want to replay.
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Chris Willott
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So far as I know, there is no general consensus on the seals. I've played three campaigns:
a) one where you don't have to recover them.
b) One where you have to recover them AND must have discovered the secret first in order to do so, and
c) one where you have to recover them but the secrets are not necessary.

I recommend c -- and feel it has the best support in the rules as written.

A) lasted 2-3 turns only. It was not a challenge
B) lasted 3-4 years and required a TON of raiding (and relied on enmity removal to make it possible)
C) was about right.

Make sure you discuss it with your play group and agree amongst yourselves.
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Dave T
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Willottica wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
A) lasted 2-3 turns only. It was not a challenge


I agree 100%. This is what happened to us, and it was a bit of a let-down.
 
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Dave T
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Willottica wrote:
A lot of info goes here


Wow, several different opinions. That's interesting. I'd have to say that I outright disagree re: #4 (I'm looking at the text in question now) and #7 (same).

Then again, as a few others have noted, the rules are sometimes less than perfectly clear!
 
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Chris Willott
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For #4:
Follow the chain of entries. (Final entry spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
"our tale is now over" seems pretty clear to me

For #7:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I understand the OP to have meant follows as "follows after" the turn. As in, the turn after a player's turn, that player will get the token. (Not, the active player will have the token.)
1. The token starts with the Emperor.
2. The lowest ranked player goes first.
3. The first card is resolved at the end of her turn.
4. The token passes from the Emperor to the lowest-ranked player immediately after that.
5. If she doesn't ditch an advisor to keep passing it, the next-lowest ranked player takes his turn.

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Dave T
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#4 -- Well, it provoked a heated discussion and a vote at our table, but that might have just been because it affected the final outcome Mostly the argument was that it did not have the extremely explicit wording of the previous milestone.

#7 -- Ah, quite so, I misunderstood OP.
 
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Chris Willott
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Or I did.
 
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Jeffrey L
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Thanks for the great discussion, everyone, you've really helped me out.

For #7:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Willottica wrote:
I understand the OP to have meant follows as "follows after" the turn. As in, the turn after a player's turn, that player will get the token. (Not, the active player will have the token.)
1. The token starts with the Emperor.
2. The lowest ranked player goes first.
3. The first card is resolved at the end of her turn.
4. The token passes from the Emperor to the lowest-ranked player immediately after that.
5. If she doesn't ditch an advisor to keep passing it, the next-lowest ranked player takes his turn.


Yes, that is how I meant it.


Question #3
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Willottica wrote:
So far as I know, there is no general consensus on the seals. I've played three campaigns:
a) one where you don't have to recover them.
b) One where you have to recover them AND must have discovered the secret first in order to do so, and
c) one where you have to recover them but the secrets are not necessary.

I recommend c -- and feel it has the best support in the rules as written.

A) lasted 2-3 turns only. It was not a challenge
B) lasted 3-4 years and required a TON of raiding (and relied on enmity removal to make it possible)
C) was about right.

Make sure you discuss it with your play group and agree amongst yourselves.


Option C seems like what we are going to do. How long would you say that game took? Was it still longer than typical games, or was it about the same?
 
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Chris Willott
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(box 6 of course)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Our final game (with scenario c) took just under 2 full years, so I'd say about 50% longer than our typical games in terms of the number of turns. As for play time, it was a little longer, because we had to resolve events after every single turn, and strategy had to change often when those events threw wrenches in our plans. (Twice, when there was only a single card that could alter the outcome of the game, that card managed to come up -- it was exciting!)
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