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Star Trek: Ascendancy» Forums » Variants

Subject: Fixing the Value of Research rss

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Zenjoy
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Hey all! Zenvious again with yet ANOTHER mod :P

So still looking at the Advancement cards and their overall impact (or lack of one) in the game's current style. Facts are Advancements don't offer a huge lot compared to the research investment that can be used to develop you Weapons and Shields for a better push for a Military Victory (or defend long enough for an Ascendency if you're culture farming enough).

There have been a few ideas being danced with, but here's a new one to go with my others (if you've not read my previous ideas, I'll re-iterate them again below).

Anyway, the mod is a simple but encouraging one - as it you are encouraged to pursue your Advancements a bit more in the early/mid game. Simply put:

"Everytime a player completes an Advancement, they gain +1 Research Token from the Supply".


The idea in this is that, by completing Advancements, the player gets a refund of -1 Research Token which goes into their stockpile - which is encouraged to be use for developing Weapons and Shields.

This doesn't prevent you developing your Weapons/ Shields. But rather it leads to the 'vibe' that your Advancements pay off to developing those anyway (e.g.: complete 4 Advancements and Raise your Weapons to Level 2).

Thoughts?
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Mauro Cimmarrusti
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ALOHA i think interesting idea,Tech deck has more or less good cards
 
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Scott Everts
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That's a nice idea. In our first game last weekend, I noticed the problem of putting off weapon/shield upgrades for advancements meant I was at a disadvantage in mid to late game. This is an easy optional rule that just might solve that problem. Good job!
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Zenjoy
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Mauro Cimmarrusti wrote:
ALOHA i think interesting idea,Tech deck has more or less good cards


Yeah there are a few I'm outright replacing with something more appealing mechanics wise.
 
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Joseph Courtight
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To me it seems strange that weapons/shield research is done differently than other types. It would seem to make sense if there was a weapons research/shield project.

I'd probably be inclined to give players one free research token one their oldest project each turn.
 
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Mauro Cimmarrusti
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ALOHA,another idea : when complete an advancement +1 Res. token at weapon &
shield research. Do you think?
 
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Alex Almond
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zfairborn wrote:
Hey all! Zenvious again with yet ANOTHER mod

So still looking at the Advancement cards and their overall impact (or lack of one) in the game's current style. Facts are Advancements don't offer a huge lot compared to the research investment that can be used to develop you Weapons and Shields for a better push for a Military Victory (or defend long enough for an Ascendency if you're culture farming enough).

There have been a few ideas being danced with, but here's a new one to go with my others (if you've not read my previous ideas, I'll re-iterate them again below).

Anyway, the mod is a simple but encouraging one - as it you are encouraged to pursue your Advancements a bit more in the early/mid game. Simply put:

"Everytime a player completes an Advancement, they gain +1 Research Token from the Supply".


The idea in this is that, by completing Advancements, the player gets a refund of -1 Research Token which goes into their stockpile - which is encouraged to be use for developing Weapons and Shields.

This doesn't prevent you developing your Weapons/ Shields. But rather it leads to the 'vibe' that your Advancements pay off to developing those anyway (e.g.: complete 4 Advancements and Raise your Weapons to Level 2).

Thoughts?


You can do it the other way too, for every weapon on shield level increase you can put 1 token on a advancement.

That should encourage a more balanced research path.

Under the current system say lvl 3 weaps and lvl 2 shields = 33 tokens.

Under this system lvl 2 weaps & lvl 2 shields = 25 use the 8 for 2 lvl 4 technologies + 1 free, and your have 3 tokens towards level 3 weapons.
 
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John Lucas
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I'm strongly in favour of encouraging players to develop more research projects. The advancement cards bring out each faction's personality and play style. The game is far less thematic when players ignore projects in favour of weapons and shields.

There are some interesting ideas here, but what do people think of this?

When upgrading weapons or shields, reduce the cost by 1 for each completed advancement.

Completed 3 advancements? Your first weapon upgrade only costs 1!
Completed 4 advancements? Your first weapon upgrade is free!
Only have your starting advancement? All your upgrades cost 1 less!


This gives players who focus on long term benefits a better chance to catch up in the later half of the game. It also thematically fits as developing new tech leads to advancement in other areas - every technology has a military application.

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Maldus Alver

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Dalek5 wrote:
To me it seems strange that weapons/shield research is done differently than other types. It would seem to make sense if there was a weapons research/shield project.

I'd probably be inclined to give players one free research token one their oldest project each turn.


On weapons and shields you can dump research while for projects you need to either farm phenomenon. You can have several projects going at once but that leaves your projects exposed to being taken by invasions/hegemony.

But yeah that has always been the problem with middling resources especially ones that are specific to research only. It is one of my complaints against Eclipse with the pink research resource. I like my resources to have many functiosn besides one thing, I guess you can use research to build more research nodes but in the end that is still one resource for one thing. Unlike culture which is the victory condition, and production which is just basic money.
 
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Stuart Tonge
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I wondered what Eclipse did as I haven't played for a little while. They cleverly make research cheaper the more of it you have and its also worth VPs.
The latter wouldn't work here unless you're going to start giving out culture tokens for research (I could certainly see why you might get culture for research...) but the former would result in some free research tokens.

Either way it needs something to balance out the research tree. That said if you're playing with focused research there are going to still be some projects that you won't touch in any case. The top tier 5 projects are likely still going to be about the best choice in any case.


How about therefore limiting the tree?
You must complete a 3 before a 4. Then a 4 before a 5.
You could also tie this to weapons and shields - you can upgrade one for every two completed projects you have.
Now the poorer ones have a purpose, and it won't all just get dumped into weapons.

This still wouldn't offset the poor pacing of some of the projects though - in fact for advanced stellar cartography, for example, it'd probably make it worse. Maybe then ignore the tiering but implement the weapon/shields limits?
 
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Dangerous Partners
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I also was disappointed how research and advancement did not progress much in a game (this is Star Trek !) so I thought of a few variants to try for our group:

Not Enough Research for Both Weapons/Shields and Advancements
Suggested Fixes:
- Use the accelerated rule where Culture can be used as wild resource.
- 'Natural' Research nodes produce two research tokens while 'converted' (Open) nodes produce one, or Your Home system nodes (each) produce two tokens.

Advancements often take too long to come out (pet hate of mine).
Suggested Fix:
- Discard to a discard pile rather than place on bottom of deck.
and
- When selecting one advancement choose from;
(a) 'Three from the deck',
(b) 'Two from the deck and the top of discard pile' or
(c) 'One from the deck and any one from discard pile'
(will take a minimum of 5 turns to go through deck instead of 7).
I like to think the discard pile reflects an advancement you have already looked at and you are going back to research it.


We've played it once and it went OK, I just can't see teh point of a Star Trek game where you struggle to play with technologies.
 
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William Hardy
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Well, we have the same pet hates. I have been trying out a house rule (for the past 3 games) that phenomena-generated research can ONLY go to advancements. Everything else is the same. It transformed the game - projects are being completed by everyone, throughout the game(s). It brings a lot of interesting abilities into play. Two observations:
(1) every player uses his first command to pick a project.
(2) you can be screwed if you don't get some Research node sites because you can't make up for it with Phenomena.
It does greatly slow down the crawl up the W/S ladders, though. I had seen games in which no one except the Romulan ever spent a single token on projects because of the fear of falling behind in W/S. Very unstartreky.
Pardon my neologism.
 
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Dangerous Partners
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whardy wrote:
Well, we have the same pet hates. I have been trying out a house rule (for the past 3 games) that phenomena-generated research can ONLY go to advancements. Everything else is the same. It transformed the game - projects are being completed by everyone, throughout the game(s). It brings a lot of interesting abilities into play. Two observations:
(1) every player uses his first command to pick a project.
(2) you can be screwed if you don't get some Research node sites because you can't make up for it with Phenomena.
It does greatly slow down the crawl up the W/S ladders, though. I had seen games in which no one except the Romulan ever spent a single token on projects because of the fear of falling behind in W/S. Very unstartreky.
Pardon my neologism.


The last game I never had any phenomena near me so that variant would have affected my opponents and helped me

Wild culture disadvantages the Ferengi badly, I was the Ferengi and my opponents were upping W/S and moving Advancements along at a great rate while I struggled to get either of them going (accentuated by finding only one Research node and no phenomena early on).

We're still sticking with our Project selection variant.

 
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Walter Kolczynski
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At my next game (probably our first 5-player game), I'm going to try a rule that you cannot upgrade your weapons/shields to a higher level than your number of completed techs.
 
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marcin marcinek
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bubba0077 wrote:
At my next game (probably our first 5-player game), I'm going to try a rule that you cannot upgrade your weapons/shields to a higher level than your number of completed techs.
I would try something more friendly. Carrot instead of a stick. Players react to carrots better :)
 
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William Hardy
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Trying something new now. You must complete an advancement before starting up the W or S ladder (your choice), and a second advancement before starting up the other ladder. Not sure how well it will work - seems to benefit the Ferengi with their inexpensive projects.
 
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