Jee Fu
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The new Hero Class, The Gambler, has a section on his rules sheet dedicated to the mechanics for modifying dice. This is first official place that talks about such a thing, and I think we can draw some conclusions that weren't otherwise supported about the Gold Ring and any pre-Wave-2 mechanics that use the term "any dice" (such as the Lucky Dice). Here is the passage in question:

Re-rolling/Modifying Dice

Several Gambler Tricks allow you to Re-roll of Modify dice. These tricks may be used on any dice, not just your own (include Enemy
To Hit rolls, other players' To Hit or Defense rolls, etc). As noted on the individual Gambling Tricks though, you may not re-roll/modify dice that are specifically called out as being excluded from using Grit on, such as a Hold Back the Darkness roll or a Random Level up bonus.

This heavily implies that the meaning of "any dice" - wherever it appears - means "Dice that aren't yours" not "Dice that can't normally be Gritted". This means that ungrittable dice are really "unchangable dice" which is a nice streamline.

Now if we could get, like, a list of ALL things that are "specifically called out as being excluded from using Grit on", that would be great! The two examples given are errata/clarifications to the Rules that came later, so we can't trust that there aren't more that we just don't know about yet. The Gold Ring needed a nerf and this gets us some of the way there, but it's true superpowers come from being able to brute-force 12s on Location Event Chart rolls (and farm up all the awesome stuff like Keywords Tribal or an extra Hand). It would be nice to know if Grit was specifically called out as being excluded from use on those (currently, I'm operating under the assumption that - like for most Chart rolls - it is excluded).

- Jee
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Njorl
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Inspector Jee wrote:
The new Hero Class, The Gambler, has a section on his rules sheet dedicated to the mechanics for modifying dice. This is first official place that talks about such a thing, and I think we can draw some conclusions that weren't otherwise supported about the Gold Ring and any pre-Wave-2 mechanics that use the term "any dice" (such as the Lucky Dice). Here is the passage in question:

Re-rolling/Modifying Dice

Several Gambler Tricks allow you to Re-roll of Modify dice. These tricks may be used on any dice, not just your own (include Enemy
To Hit rolls, other players' To Hit or Defense rolls, etc). As noted on the individual Gambling Tricks though, you may not re-roll/modify dice that are specifically called out as being excluded from using Grit on, such as a Hold Back the Darkness roll or a Random Level up bonus.

This heavily implies that the meaning of "any dice" - wherever it appears - means "Dice that aren't yours" not "Dice that can't normally be Gritted". This means that ungrittable dice are really "unchangable dice" which is a nice streamline.

Now if we could get, like, a list of ALL things that are "specifically called out as being excluded from using Grit on", that would be great! The two examples given are errata/clarifications to the Rules that came later, so we can't trust that there aren't more that we just don't know about yet. The Gold Ring needed a nerf and this gets us some of the way there, but it's true superpowers come from being able to brute-force 12s on Location Event Chart rolls (and farm up all the awesome stuff like Keywords Tribal or an extra Hand). It would be nice to know if Grit was specifically called out as being excluded from use on those (currently, I'm operating under the assumption that - like for most Chart rolls - it is excluded).

- Jee


I guess that is necessary since the gold ring can make every town visit a breeze(surgery is easy, much easier to get a 12 on a visit to the blacksmith), and on adventure the gold ring and the ring of corruption means that if you are knocked out you can easily get a +1 max grit.
 
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Jee Fu
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njep wrote:
Inspector Jee wrote:
The new Hero Class, The Gambler, has a section on his rules sheet dedicated to the mechanics for modifying dice. This is first official place that talks about such a thing, and I think we can draw some conclusions that weren't otherwise supported about the Gold Ring and any pre-Wave-2 mechanics that use the term "any dice" (such as the Lucky Dice). Here is the passage in question:

Re-rolling/Modifying Dice

Several Gambler Tricks allow you to Re-roll of Modify dice. These tricks may be used on any dice, not just your own (include Enemy
To Hit rolls, other players' To Hit or Defense rolls, etc). As noted on the individual Gambling Tricks though, you may not re-roll/modify dice that are specifically called out as being excluded from using Grit on, such as a Hold Back the Darkness roll or a Random Level up bonus.

This heavily implies that the meaning of "any dice" - wherever it appears - means "Dice that aren't yours" not "Dice that can't normally be Gritted". This means that ungrittable dice are really "unchangable dice" which is a nice streamline.

Now if we could get, like, a list of ALL things that are "specifically called out as being excluded from using Grit on", that would be great! The two examples given are errata/clarifications to the Rules that came later, so we can't trust that there aren't more that we just don't know about yet. The Gold Ring needed a nerf and this gets us some of the way there, but it's true superpowers come from being able to brute-force 12s on Location Event Chart rolls (and farm up all the awesome stuff like Keywords Tribal or an extra Hand). It would be nice to know if Grit was specifically called out as being excluded from use on those (currently, I'm operating under the assumption that - like for most Chart rolls - it is excluded).

- Jee


I guess that is necessary since the gold ring can make every town visit a breeze(surgery is easy, much easier to get a 12 on a visit to the blacksmith), and on adventure the gold ring and the ring of corruption means that if you are knocked out you can easily get a +1 max grit.

Sadly, we have it on good authority that you can totally grit an Injury Roll (which is lame, there I said it). So these kinds of mechanics would still work on them.

I liked it better when 12 counted as its own "Injury" such that you couldn't get it more than once (like the others do). But then Lord Commander Hill had to come down and clarify that as not the case. You can farm Injury 12s to your heart's content.

- Jee
 
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Didn't the Frog talk about putting up a FAQ a long time ago ?
Also for someone still waiting his wave2 and thus who hasn't played for almost 2 years, what is the Gold ring ?
 
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WilliamB wrote:
Didn't the Frog talk about putting up a FAQ a long time ago ?
Also for someone still waiting his wave2 and thus who hasn't played for almost 2 years, what is the Gold ring ?

How rude of us! The Gold Ring is an item you can buy at the Gambling Hall (in the Frontier Town Expansion) for buku bucks.

Gold Ring

Gear * Ring
$2,750
Once per Adventure/Town Stay, change any single die you just rolled into a 6.
Showman Only
[1 Anvil][0 Sockets]

To be fair, it doesn't use the "any dice" wording exactly but its close enough to make a decent extrapolation. The price and the Keyword Requirement are a deterrent, but you can buy a Top Hat at the same place that gives you Showman. So the problem with it is that - RAW - it has no discernible limits (other than that it has to be a dice you rolled). And if you get creative, for instance by using it on Location Event Chart Rolls or Injury/Madness Rolls, you can OP yourself pretty fast. Fortunately, FFP had enough insight to keep the superpowered mutations away from the 6s.

BTW, I cannot recommend the Frontier Town Expansion enough. It may seem like the only thing we do here is complain, but it's a top-notch expansion on every level.

- Jee

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Inspector Jee wrote:
Sadly, we have it on good authority that you can totally grit an Injury Roll


Wait... what? I don't remember that, although I haven't been following the discussions too closely for the past few months.

What happened to your theory that grit requires either (1) that your hero can somehow affect the number of dice, or (2) that your hero has paid for the roll?

Or my corollary (or "rephrase" maybe): No gritting anything that comes on a chart unless you paid to roll.

 
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Rubric wrote:
Inspector Jee wrote:
Sadly, we have it on good authority that you can totally grit an Injury Roll


Wait... what? I don't remember that, although I haven't been following the discussions too closely for the past few months.

What happened to your theory that grit requires either (1) that your hero can somehow affect the number of dice, or (2) that your hero has paid for the roll?

Or my corollary (or "rephrase" maybe): No gritting anything that comes on a chart unless you paid to roll.


That's still my theory. But at Gen Con last year I had Jason Hill straight-up tell me that Gritting Injuries/Madness was OK. Didn't think to ask about Mutation, but I'm kinda glad I didn't. Cause gritting that would be OP. To be fair, they always say "take con-rulings with a grain of salt" cause they're super tired+wired from all the excitement and work.

I dunno, man. Maybe there some kinda special case ruling for every single roll. That would be a certainly be a nightmare. Let us hope not!

- Jee
 
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Hey Guys,

There is a forthcoming FAQ/Errata Doc that will bring some more info and clarity on things like this, with a few official tweaks and changes as well. For Grit, the biggest change will be that...

Grit now cannot be used on any Chart Roll, with two exceptions - 1) You may use Grit to Re-roll any Chart roll that would outright Kill your Hero (not simply KO, but actually kill) and 2) You may use Grit to Re-roll any roll to remove an Injury/Madness/Mutation/Parasite/Curse (such as at the Doc's Office or Church, etc).

This makes anything with a Chart a little more dangerous (such as Traveling, Town Location Event Charts, Charts on Encounter cards, etc), which generally makes the game a bit more exciting, while the two exceptions prevent things from getting too punishing.

There are a lot more fun and interesting things in the Official FAQ/Errata Doc that I think most players are going to really dig as well.

As a side note, if anybody wants to put together a clean thread on this BGG page for prospective FAQ questions for the Official Doc, I'll see what I can do about getting them addressed in the Doc when it lands.

-Jason
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Jee Fu
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jchill7 wrote:
Hey Guys,

There is a forthcoming FAQ/Errata Doc that will bring some more info and clarity on things like this, with a few official tweaks and changes as well. For Grit, the biggest change will be that...

Grit now cannot be used on any Chart Roll, with two exceptions - 1) You may use Grit to Re-roll any Chart roll that would outright Kill your Hero (not simply KO, but actually kill) and 2) You may use Grit to Re-roll any roll to remove an Injury/Madness/Mutation/Parasite/Curse (such as at the Doc's Office or Church, etc).

This makes anything with a Chart a little more dangerous (such as Traveling, Town Location Event Charts, Charts on Encounter cards, etc), which generally makes the game a bit more exciting, while the two exceptions prevent things from getting too punishing.

There are a lot more fun and interesting things in the Official FAQ/Errata Doc that I think most players are going to really dig as well.

As a side note, if anybody wants to put together a clean thread on this BGG page for prospective FAQ questions for the Official Doc, I'll see what I can do about getting them addressed in the Doc when it lands.

-Jason

AND THE GODS ANSWER! Thank you

This isn't too far off from what I've been doing anyway, so a coupla minor tweaks are all that's needed!

In regard to the current topic my current operating procedure will be thus: You cannot use generic "change/modify" mechanics on dice that are specifically called out as un-grittable. From this we can assume a few things:

1) You can grit Injury/Madness/Mutation, but only in a life-threatening scenario (and only, I'm assuming, if the dice in question haven't already been re-rolled via some other mechanic)

2) You can use the Gold Ring in these situations as well, even if you normally wouldn't be able to.

Lord Commander Hill, this explicit ruling solves a lot of problems. Thanks again!

- Jee

P.S. If someone is taking it upon themselves to assemble that FAQ, I want in. Autoduelist? We were kinda doin' that anyway.
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jchill7 wrote:
Hey Guys,

There is a forthcoming FAQ/Errata Doc that will bring some more info and clarity on things like this, with a few official tweaks and changes as well. For Grit, the biggest change will be that...

Grit now cannot be used on any Chart Roll, with two exceptions - 1) You may use Grit to Re-roll any Chart roll that would outright Kill your Hero (not simply KO, but actually kill) and 2) You may use Grit to Re-roll any roll to remove an Injury/Madness/Mutation/Parasite/Curse (such as at the Doc's Office or Church, etc).

This makes anything with a Chart a little more dangerous (such as Traveling, Town Location Event Charts, Charts on Encounter cards, etc), which generally makes the game a bit more exciting, while the two exceptions prevent things from getting too punishing.

There are a lot more fun and interesting things in the Official FAQ/Errata Doc that I think most players are going to really dig as well.

As a side note, if anybody wants to put together a clean thread on this BGG page for prospective FAQ questions for the Official Doc, I'll see what I can do about getting them addressed in the Doc when it lands.

-Jason


Interesting bit about chart rerolls. We've been playing that you can't reroll charts at all so this will make the game a little easier
 
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Njorl
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Inspector Jee wrote:
jchill7 wrote:
Hey Guys,

There is a forthcoming FAQ/Errata Doc that will bring some more info and clarity on things like this, with a few official tweaks and changes as well. For Grit, the biggest change will be that...

Grit now cannot be used on any Chart Roll, with two exceptions - 1) You may use Grit to Re-roll any Chart roll that would outright Kill your Hero (not simply KO, but actually kill) and 2) You may use Grit to Re-roll any roll to remove an Injury/Madness/Mutation/Parasite/Curse (such as at the Doc's Office or Church, etc).

This makes anything with a Chart a little more dangerous (such as Traveling, Town Location Event Charts, Charts on Encounter cards, etc), which generally makes the game a bit more exciting, while the two exceptions prevent things from getting too punishing.

There are a lot more fun and interesting things in the Official FAQ/Errata Doc that I think most players are going to really dig as well.

As a side note, if anybody wants to put together a clean thread on this BGG page for prospective FAQ questions for the Official Doc, I'll see what I can do about getting them addressed in the Doc when it lands.

-Jason

AND THE GODS ANSWER! Thank you

This isn't too far off from what I've been doing anyway, so a coupla minor tweaks are all that's needed!

In regard to the current topic my current operating procedure will be thus: You cannot use generic "change/modify" mechanics on dice that are specifically called out as un-grittable. From this we can assume a few things:

1) You can grit Injury/Madness/Mutation, but only in a life-threatening scenario (and only, I'm assuming, if the dice in question haven't already been re-rolled via some other mechanic)

2) You can use the Gold Ring in these situations as well, even if you normally wouldn't be able to.

Lord Commander Hill, this explicit ruling solves a lot of problems. Thanks again!

- Jee

P.S. If someone is taking it upon themselves to assemble that FAQ, I want in. Autoduelist? We were kinda doin' that anyway.


So this is interesting....

When rolling on the table for injuries/madness, you can only get killed if you are rolling with the -1 penalty. In which case lets say you have the gold ring and the ring of corruption(or whatever combination items skills), you cannot get the +1 max grit. Even if you change the snake eyes to 6s, you have to apply the -1 to the roll. So the best you can get is 11. Likewise at the doc's, can't you only die if you have the -1 penalty?
 
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Jee Fu
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njep wrote:

When rolling on the table for injuries/madness, you can only get killed if you are rolling with the -1 penalty. In which case lets say you have the gold ring and the ring of corruption(or whatever combination items skills), you cannot get the +1 max grit. Even if you change the snake eyes to 6s, you have to apply the -1 to the roll. So the best you can get is 11. Likewise at the doc's, can't you only die if you have the -1 penalty?

The Injury/Madness tables kill you on a 1-2, so its totally possible to die without the penalty. The Doc's Office won't kill you without a penalty, but the Back Alley Doc at the Smuggler's Den might.

- Jee
 
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Hi Jee. I'll work with you on getting a clean thread. I guess I'll have to take that ugly slog through the forums to dig up rules questions. yuk

Back to the initial question at hand, remember the Grit rule is limited to a specific result that outright kills the character OR it's a result to cure conditions like mutations, curses, etc. So that means the following:

1.) Just because a chart has a result that could end in a character's death doesn't mean you get to use Grit because you don't like the result. You have to actually roll the death result before you can use Grit. For example, You're out-of-luck if you've already re-rolled the dice for your procedure to remove a mutation because there's already a rule that a given die may only be re-rolled once.

2.) Page 7 of the rules says "you may re-roll any number of dice you just rolled." The reason you don't get to do this for monsters is because page 27 specifically says "Note that as the game itself is playing the Enemies, it is up to the other players to actually roll the dice for the Enemy's Attacks. A player should not roll the Enemy Attacks on their own Hero (that would be bad form)."

They're not "your dice", so you can't Grit them. I have a question asking whether this generalizes to variable results on Darkness or Growing Dread cards. You may not be able to re-roll a card's chart, but what about a variable outcome like D6 Wounds ignoring Defense or the permanent D3 loss of Sanity?

3.) The Gold Ring or the Lucky Hat are not Grit, so it seems reasonable you can use their die re-roll ability. Besides not costing the character Grit, their other value is that you might be able to use them in circumstances where Grit isn't allowed. Remember, that the rule about a die may only be re-rolled once is still in play even with the Lucky Hat and Gold Ring.
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Autoduelist wrote:
Hi Jee. I'll work with you on getting a clean thread. I guess I'll have to take that ugly slog through the forums to dig up rules questions. yuk

Back to the initial question at hand, remember the Grit rule is limited to a specific result that outright kills the character OR it's a result to cure conditions like mutations, curses, etc. So that means the following:

1.) Just because a chart has a result that could end in a character's death doesn't mean you get to use Grit because you don't like the result. You have to actually roll the death result before you can use Grit. For example, You're out-of-luck if you've already re-rolled the dice for your procedure to remove a mutation because there's already a rule that a given die may only be re-rolled once.

2.) Page 7 of the rules says "you may re-roll any number of dice you just rolled." The reason you don't get to do this for monsters is because page 27 specifically says "Note that as the game itself is playing the Enemies, it is up to the other players to actually roll the dice for the Enemy's Attacks. A player should not roll the Enemy Attacks on their own Hero (that would be bad form)."

They're not "your dice", so you can't Grit them. I have a question asking whether this generalizes to variable results on Darkness or Growing Dread cards. You may not be able to re-roll a card's chart, but what about a variable outcome like D6 Wounds ignoring Defense or the permanent D3 loss of Sanity?

3.) The Gold Ring or the Lucky Hat are not Grit, so it seems reasonable you can use their die re-roll ability. Besides not costing the character Grit, their other value is that you might be able to use them in circumstances where Grit isn't allowed. Remember, that the rule about a die may only be re-rolled once is still in play even with the Lucky Hat and Gold Ring.


I think the concern is that the gold ring or whatever else may follow the same rules that are being put in place for the gambler

"Several Gambler Tricks allow you to Re-roll of Modify dice. These tricks may be used on any dice, not just your own (include Enemy To Hit rolls, other players' To Hit or Defense rolls, etc). As noted on the individual Gambling Tricks though, you may not re-roll/modify dice that are specifically called out as being excluded from using Grit on, such as a Hold Back the Darkness roll or a Random Level up bonus."

Of course that is a big if.
 
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It's worth remembering that this ruling doesn't cover reward rolls ("Gain D6x25 XP!") or the rolls to determine the price of the Dark Stone shards you're selling. Or the rolls to determine how much Dark Stone you lose cause Bandits robbed you while you were sleeping (or if a Tomb Chest protects you from that, and if so does that mean they take your Dark Stone Items if all your regular Dark Stone is in your chest?). There are probably other edge cases as well. At the moment I'm treating these like Charts in terms of their alter-ability.

Can anyone think of any other kinds of rolls that don't fit into neat categories?

- Jee
 
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Autoduelist wrote:

3.) The Gold Ring or the Lucky Hat are not Grit, so it seems reasonable you can use their die re-roll ability. Besides not costing the character Grit, their other value is that you might be able to use them in circumstances where Grit isn't allowed. Remember, that the rule about a die may only be re-rolled once is still in play even with the Lucky Hat and Gold Ring.


njep wrote:
I think the concern is that the gold ring or whatever else may follow the same rules that are being put in place for the gambler

"Several Gambler Tricks allow you to Re-roll of Modify dice. These tricks may be used on any dice, not just your own (include Enemy To Hit rolls, other players' To Hit or Defense rolls, etc). As noted on the individual Gambling Tricks though, you may not re-roll/modify dice that are specifically called out as being excluded from using Grit on, such as a Hold Back the Darkness roll or a Random Level up bonus."

Of course that is a big if.


Yes, exactly. The Gambler's rules use the same basic wording as the Gold Ring and other "change any dice" mechanics, and they forbid using such mechanics on ungrittable things. Which is ... great, I mean its super-streamlined and prevents us from having the "What can I grit problem" all over again, except with a whole other mechanic. If we accept what the Gambler's rules imply, it cuts our problems in half. And it makes the Gold Ring not super-Overpowered.

Until otherwise stated, Im going to assume that ungrittable dice are unchangable dice, except in cases where an ability/item/effect grants the ability to change a very specific roll (for instance, if there was an ability that says "change the result of a Location Event Roll to X").

- Jee
 
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Hopefully the errata will cover the gambling hall too, because, right now, this location breaks the economy of the game, especially if you have high cunning(also, tools of science).
 
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And I've started a thread:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1794261/official-shadow...

I still have to add Jee's first set of questions he geekmailed me. They should be up shortly.

If someone will kindly summarize some of the blatant Gambling Hall abuses here, I'll work up a question for them. It was my understanding from the Frontier Town expansion that Unwanted Attention markers was supposed to solve the problem.
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I'm making good progress. I've still got 758 questions to look over in the City of the Ancients forums; but at least I've reviewed all the other product forums.

My friend has my SOB minecart pledge, so I apologize for not having rule books, leaflets, and cards to consult before drafting questions.
 
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Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a minute.

Now that I have actual Gambler's Rules in front of me, there is yet another passage, later on on the same page that says this:

Fortune's Favor (Starting Gambler Trick) MAY be used to Re-roll one of the dice on a Chart roll (Injury, Mutation, Location Event, etc.), unless that Chart is specifically marked as being prohibited from using Grit.

But Jason just came in here and said that EVERY Chart (with little exception) is specifically prohibited from using Grit. So what's with this passage? And whats with the reference to Fortune's Favor only, when the previous passage basically says the same thing about ALL Gambler Tricks?

Is the wording on this Trick-specific passage already out-of-date? Or is Fortune's Favor somehow different than the rest of the Tricks in that it CAN affect some non-grittable rolls, but not others (the difference between which eludes definition) even tho it shares the exact same exception text as all other Gambling Tricks?

E'splain, plz.

- Jee
 
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Inspector Jee wrote:
unless that Chart is specifically marked as being prohibited from using Grit.

But Jason just came in here and said that EVERY Chart (with little exception) is specifically prohibited from using Grit.


Isn't this just a case of specific rules override general rules? Because the general rule is (now) no Grit on charts, but there are few or no charts that specifically are marked as no Grit.
 
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rpvt wrote:
Inspector Jee wrote:
unless that Chart is specifically marked as being prohibited from using Grit.

But Jason just came in here and said that EVERY Chart (with little exception) is specifically prohibited from using Grit.


Isn't this just a case of specific rules override general rules? Because the general rule is (now) no Grit on charts, but there are few or no charts that specifically are marked as no Grit.

But thanks to the new ruling, all Charts are now specifically marked as no Grit, which means you can't use Fortune's Favor on any of them, which makes this passage in the rules seem completely unnecessary.

Here are the possible reconciliations:

1) The passage in the Gambler rules regarding the exception for Fortune's Favor pre-dates Jason's ruling and is now redundant/invalid, effectively making his errata a nerf to Fortune's Favor.

2) The intention is to let Fortune's Favor work on all Charts except ones that are now redundantly marked as no Grit.

3) Some other permutation of exegesis we haven't thought of, or ruling by FFP.

The second option, above, heavily relies on the notion that FFP intends that "Ungrittable Charts" and "All Other Charts" be mechanically distinct (at least where Fortune's Favor is concerned), even tho Grit can't be used on either type. This seems pretty dubious. It's hard for me to imagine that FFP intended to use a Chart descriptor that is out-of-date to describe rules that are up-to-date just to avoid putting out official errata.

I'm therefore going with the first option, for now.

- Jee
 
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Since you are a technical individual, I will point out that Jason did not say to add the rule to each chart specifying that chart was not grittable. He provided a general rule:

Quote:
Grit now cannot be used on any Chart Roll, with two exceptions - 1) You may use Grit to Re-roll any Chart roll that would outright Kill your Hero (not simply KO, but actually kill) and 2) You may use Grit to Re-roll any roll to remove an Injury/Madness/Mutation/Parasite/Curse (such as at the Doc's Office or Church, etc).


That's not "specifically prohibited". That's a general ruling that covers charts overall. At the moment, no chart is "specifically" marked as not allowing grit.

When games mirror life: getting a question answered merely opens more questions.
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