Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
18 Posts

Liberty Roads» Forums » General

Subject: A couple questions on gameplay rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Subatomic Birdicle
United States
flag msg tools
*chirp*
badge
*squawk*
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
As I try to whittle down my wargame collection to games I would actually want to play (and only solo at that) I am now eyeballing this game to determine whether I should sell it or play it. Since it is still in shrinkwrap, removing the shrinkwrap to try it would reduce it sale value. So I am wondering about a couple of things, if anyone would be so kind as to inform me:

First, what is the combat system like? I like games with a lot of attrition and maneuver. I dislike games with a lot of sticky lines and combat-result retreats, they feel like shoving matches to me. I particularly dislike games where most casualties come from forcing units to retreat through a ZOC. What kind of combat results do you typically see in this game?

Second, I have experience playing The Mighty Endeavor, which I thought was great for the first third of the game (the Normandy portion was short enough not to make the bocage grind feel boring, the race across France was exciting and mobile) but really dragged for the rest (the WestWall was just a brutal static grind, and the southern portion of the German border was missing as well). Once I realized I always lost interest in the game after the first twelve turns or so, I sold it. How is the post-breakout portion of this game? Is it a long static grind in the Westwall like in TME? Or is there more fighting in central and southern France, western Belgium etc. which might be less realistic but would be more fun?

Thanks for any insights.

Also curious how Roundhammer plays, I have read it is impossible for the Allies, but that was a long time ago.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Dangla
France
Bry/Marne
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
what is the combat system like?

Hi Wilbur , I'm fond of the system, particularly of the combat rules which are very clever. Artillery, air support, combat surprise and many other events are taken into accounts by support markers. The CRT incurs not only losses, but also "tactical results" (retreat, supplmentaryr losses, exploitation that can be very powerful since units that exploit may move and fight a second time. Elite units may choose between different tactical results but if they do, the risk of losses for these units increases.

How is the post-breakout portion of this game? Is it a long static grind in the Westwall like in TME? Or is there more fighting in central and southern France, western Belgium etc. which might be less realistic but would be more fun?

I would say it depends of the choice of the german player but, if he retreats along the Siegfried line, it is hard for the allied player to cross it. But it's quite historical, since the allied forces spent several months in front of the Siegfried line.

6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Åkerlund
Sweden
Vallentuna
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb

There are no ZOCs in this game so you'll definately see a lot of maneuver and attrition. I suggest you check out Marco Arnaudo's review of the game in the Video section and/or browse the rule book to help you make up your mind.


4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Subatomic Birdicle
United States
flag msg tools
*chirp*
badge
*squawk*
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Brastias wrote:

There are no ZOCs in this game so you'll definately see a lot of maneuver and attrition.


Thanks.

Quote:
I suggest you check out Marco Arnaudo's review of the game in the Video section and/or browse the rule book to help you make up your mind?


Marco gave Afrika II a great review and I thought it was one of the worst wargames I ever played, both in terms of fun and in terms of realism, so I will pass on his review. I am more interested in the specific question (which can't be answered from the rulebook) is the second half of Liberty Roads usually a boring grindfest against the Westwall? I have seen pics of some games which show the Allies and Germans slugging it out in the open in mid-France in late 1944 which seems to indicate the game may not be mired in replicating the tedious historical events of Oct-Dec 1944, but I am not sure how representative those pics are.

(Yes I know that a boring grindfest against the Westwall might be historical, but that doesn't make it fun. I am not particularly interested in just trying to replicate the historical campaign from Oct-Dec 1944.)

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
武士に二言無し
Italy
Caravaggio near Bergamo near Milano
Europe + Earth + Via Lactea
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sorry, but if you are only interested in the money value of the wargame, sell it or do as all other do: believe in the system, open the box and play it.
No words can convince me about the good or bad of a game till I played it to the end and many time.
Good luck,

F.

P.s.: Hope I'm not too rude ...
P.p.s: Rules, in pdf, are online to read and evaluate.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Subatomic Birdicle
United States
flag msg tools
*chirp*
badge
*squawk*
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Filippo Chiari wrote:
Sorry, but if you are only interested in the money value of the wargame, sell it or do as all other do: believe in the system, open the box and play it.
No words can convince me about the good or bad of a game till I played it to the end and many time.
Good luck,

F.

P.s.: Hope I'm not too rude ...
P.p.s: Rules, in pdf, are online to read and evaluate.


Does this mean that in your experience, the second half of the game is a grind against the Westwall?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
武士に二言無し
Italy
Caravaggio near Bergamo near Milano
Europe + Earth + Via Lactea
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Only if you try to land in Holland till you exit the units requested via east ...
The game, as Victory Roads, is a masterpiece, but usury (wear) is typical of both games and German are 97% on defence ... sometime can organize a good counterattack, very satisfying, trying to calm down the man with moustache!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Subatomic Birdicle
United States
flag msg tools
*chirp*
badge
*squawk*
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Filippo Chiari wrote:
Only if you try to land in Holland till you exit the units requested via east ...
The game, as Victory Roads, is a masterpiece, but usury is typical of both games



Usury means "the illegal action or practice of lending money at unreasonably high rates of interest" so I am not sure what you mean. I tried plugging the word into Google's translator from Italian to English but apparently it means the same thing in Italian. An auto-correct error perhaps? In any case, what did you mean by "usury" ?

I understand the situation, the Germans are on defense, my question is can they defend in central France or do they always run straight from Normandy to the Westwall?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
武士に二言無し
Italy
Caravaggio near Bergamo near Milano
Europe + Earth + Via Lactea
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: A couple questions on gameplayv
Sorry, my mistake reading my dictionary, mean wear/wearing, oops!

As we know, in historical terms, is only a matter of time, but a smart player can use is units, panzer, to stall the Allied advance or at least to slow it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Stearns
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Have several games of this. Not solo though. Not sure how the support markers will play solo as they are hidden until played. If you can manage that I highly recommend the game. Though I haven't played TME I do not like SCS because I find it's too generic and dumbed down. LR is definitely not dumbed down and generic. It has many cool things going for it. I don't find the game drags at all. The Allies are on the clock to achieve victory before time runs out. Germans do not have to run for the SL. They have staying power if played well. At least until toward the end of the game when PZ and PG Divisions get withdrawn to the East Front. If you have an interest in the Normandy campaign and the campaign for France in my opinion this is the best game out there at this scale. Comparing to mighty endeavor, fortress Europa, festung Europe and road to the Rhine.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Myk Deans
United States
Rotonda West
Florida
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
I concur with Matt. The combat and support chit mechanisms are the best features, with the possibility to explore different landing areas a runner up. With lots of variability it makes for a different situation in each play. At least in the first third/half of the game.

However, as Matt points out, the second half of the campaign is more of a grind. Once the Allies have established themselves and started pushing forward it's related to how far/fast the Axis retreat. Any game on the subject will likely see the same.

That said, if you're interested in the whole campaign from invasion to Germany in a one-map format then LR is one of the better options out there.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Subatomic Birdicle
United States
flag msg tools
*chirp*
badge
*squawk*
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mcdeans wrote:
With lots of variability it makes for a different situation in each play. At least in the first third/half of the game.

However, as Matt points out, the second half of the campaign is more of a grind. Once the Allies have established themselves and started pushing forward it's related to how far/fast the Axis retreat. Any game on the subject will likely see the same.


Thanks for your frank feedback.

I really dislike grinds in wargames. I know they don't bother some people so I tend not to pay attention to "this game is great and fun" etc type reviews, because those people often enjoy the exact things that I cannot stand, like a turn where multiple hexes don't change hands. The second half/two thirds of the game grind of TME killed that game for me. Realistic? No doubt. Fun? Not for me. Sounds like Liberty Roads features the same dynamic. Probably just not a good campaign for me to game.

Thanks again.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Stearns
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hmm interesting conclusion. Can't say any of my games where such that the lines didn't change. I think you let yourself get talked out of playing the best game at this scale on the subject. My games didn't bog down. But you know what you like and don't like.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Subatomic Birdicle
United States
flag msg tools
*chirp*
badge
*squawk*
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
gohrns wrote:
Hmm interesting conclusion. Can't say any of my games where such that the lines didn't change. I think you let yourself get talked out of playing the best game at this scale on the subject. My games didn't bog down. But you know what you like and don't like.


We might have different definitions of bogged down. I don't play Bulge or Italy games either. The real Allies raced across France in three weeks then basically got bogged down for four months. If the game is at all similar, then I wouldn't like it.

This may be the best game on the subject. I think it is the subject I don't really like. The August-September pursuit in TME is so much fun that what follows was just a terrible bore.

If I was designing such a game, I would probably use weekly turns till the end of September and then switch to monthly turns, or even two month turns, for the rest, to maintain the pace of play.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Raspler
United States
New York
New York
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chuft wrote:
If I was designing such a game, I would probably use weekly turns till the end of September and then switch to monthly turns, or even two month turns, for the rest, to maintain the pace of play.


That sounds like an elegant solution.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christophe Gentil-Perret
France
flag msg tools
publisher
mbmbmbmb
chuft wrote:

If I was designing such a game, I would probably use weekly turns till the end of September and then switch to monthly turns, or even two month turns, for the rest, to maintain the pace of play.

In Liberty, you switch from 3 turns/month in Summer to 2 turns/month in Fall and Winter.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Stearns
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chuft wrote:
gohrns wrote:
Hmm interesting conclusion. Can't say any of my games where such that the lines didn't change. I think you let yourself get talked out of playing the best game at this scale on the subject. My games didn't bog down. But you know what you like and don't like.


We might have different definitions of bogged down. I don't play Bulge or Italy games either. The real Allies raced across France in three weeks then basically got bogged down for four months. If the game is at all similar, then I wouldn't like it.

This may be the best game on the subject. I think it is the subject I don't really like. The August-September pursuit in TME is so much fun that what follows was just a terrible bore.

If I was designing such a game, I would probably use weekly turns till the end of September and then switch to monthly turns, or even two month turns, for the rest, to maintain the pace of play.


Yes you are right that is probably the rub. I really enjoy Bulge as well. Curious, do you enjoy East Front games then? Always more maneuver in that theater
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Subatomic Birdicle
United States
flag msg tools
*chirp*
badge
*squawk*
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have enjoyed Proud Monster: The Barbarossa Campaign, Ring of Fire: The Fourth Battle for Kharkov, August 1943, Smithereens, and EastFront. Basically games with streamlined rules and a lot of action/units getting destroyed.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.