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Shadows of Brimstone: City of the Ancients» Forums » Rules

Subject: Official Shadows of Brimstone FAQ question thread. rss

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Jee Fu
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Autoduelist wrote:
Another datapoint for the keep/discard card argument. I don't see anything in the rules prohibiting multiple copies of the same set (card packs, other worlds). The only rules I've seen are assigning elite abilities when you run out of enemy figures and a FAQ question recommending that the Loot Deck, Scavenge Deck, and Map Decks not be duplicated, which means Mine Artifact and Gear Decks would be okay.

Maybe somebody likes the Serpent Skull Helmet and wants their posse to be able to find more than one, so they buy a second Jargano artifact deck; or maybe they bought that extra deck by mistake, so they use it.
Yeah its all very reasonable. There is no official system governing any of that and frankly, FFP would prolly prefer you spend MORE money on them so they're not going to tell you NOT to buy duplicates of stuff. But I stand by my desire to know what FFP intends and does when they're play testing the game in its official capacity.

- Jee
 
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Jason Hill
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Hey Guys,

Generally speaking, for playtesting (and playing at home) we have too many different Heroes and Posses to keep cards out of the decks and with the character that has them. We always write down what Artifact and Gear cards each Hero has, and then pull them from the deck at the start of each game for our Heroes.

If there is a single copy of a card and multiple Heroes have found it during different Adventures (where the other Hero was not present), they just write down or make sure they know what the card does so that both Heroes can use it at the same time.

If you wanted to boil this down to an 'informal' Rule for design/balance intent, it would be -

"A single Hero may not have more copies of any individual card than could be physically found in the game, across all card decks (even if that information is tracked in a form other than using the physical cards)."


This allows you to have multiple Heroes and posses running off of the same game set, and not trample on each other's Loot finds, while also not throwing things out of balance by allowing the same Hero to find/trade for/use several copies of the same powerful Items.

Of course, if you decided to add redundant cards to your particular game set (multiple copies of the same expansion or supplement), that would allow for more copies of certain cards, but at that point, you are customizing your decks (which is fine and generally encouraged if you think it will make the game more fun for your specific game group).

The more cards you have, the less likely this situation is to ever come up, but that is the intended guideline.

As a side note, if Players want to avoid needing to search for all of their card based Items before each game, you could also just have a policy of leaving the cards in the decks, but allowing a Hero to Re-draw or immediately cash out for the Gold Value (finding a 'stash of Gold' instead) any Item they find that would break this guideline.

Hope that helps give some insight into the intent.

Happy Gaming!

-Jason


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Jee Fu
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jchill7 wrote:
Hey Guys,

Generally speaking, for playtesting (and playing at home) we have too many different Heroes and Posses to keep cards out of the decks and with the character that has them. We always write down what Artifact and Gear cards each Hero has, and then pull them from the deck at the start of each game for our Heroes.

If there is a single copy of a card and multiple Heroes have found it during different Adventures (where the other Hero was not present), they just write down or make sure they know what the card does so that both Heroes can use it at the same time.

If you wanted to boil this down to an 'informal' Rule for design/balance intent, it would be -

"A single Hero may not have more copies of any individual card than could be physically found in the game, across all card decks (even if that information is tracked in a form other than using the physical cards)."


This allows you to have multiple Heroes and posses running off of the same game set, and not trample on each other's Loot finds, while also not throwing things out of balance by allowing the same Hero to find/trade for/use several copies of the same powerful Items.

Of course, if you decided to add redundant cards to your particular game set (multiple copies of the same expansion or supplement), that would allow for more copies of certain cards, but at that point, you are customizing your decks (which is fine and generally encouraged if you think it will make the game more fun for your specific game group).

The more cards you have, the less likely this situation is to ever come up, but that is the intended guideline.

As a side note, if Players want to avoid needing to search for all of their card based Items before each game, you could also just have a policy of leaving the cards in the decks, but allowing a Hero to Re-draw or immediately cash out for the Gold Value (finding a 'stash of Gold' instead) any Item they find that would break this guideline.

Hope that helps give some insight into the intent.

Happy Gaming!

-Jason


You guys are on fire this week! This is fantastic - once again, thanks for the clear and prompt response laugh

- Jee
 
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Neil Edmonds
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I could quibble over the last few points Jee raised, but since Jason Hill weighed in, there's no point in debating it further. Thank you Jason for taking the time to weigh in.

Thank you Jee for acknowledging the points we were in agreement on. Your dedication and support within the rules forums have made Shadows of Brimstone a better game.

Now does anyone else have some new questions we can document?
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Philip Jelley
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If you kill a a Brutal Souls of the Damned do you get the 25XP on the Threat card, or the 30XP on the Brutal card? The same question applies to similar Otherworld Threat cards.
 
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Neil Edmonds
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A good question. I added the following to the FAQ. Maybe we could find all the examples?

Sometimes there's a discrepancy between the Otherworld Threat XP value of brutal enemies and the default brutal enemy cards, and the Otherworld Threat is worth less XP than the standard Brutal Enemy. Was this by-design?

One example is Brutal Souls of the Damned. The Otherworld Threat is worth 25 XP but the default brutal enemy is 30 XP.
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Philip Jelley
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Autoduelist wrote:
A good question. I added the following to the FAQ. Maybe we could find all the examples?

Sometimes there's a discrepancy between the Otherworld Threat XP value of brutal enemies and the default brutal enemy cards, and the Otherworld Threat is worth less XP than the standard Brutal Enemy. Was this by-design?

One example is Brutal Souls of the Damned. The Otherworld Threat is worth 25 XP but the default brutal enemy is 30 XP.

Bogbats, Lavabats, Snow Terrors, Souls of the Damned, and Trench Spiders are worth the same whether Brutal or not, their regular XP is the same as the Brutal XP of their Mine counterparts, except Snow Terrors (30 XP to 10/20 XP), and Souls of the Damned (25 XP to 20/30 XP), while Swamp Slashers have no XP bonus over normal Slashers.

Torture Drones and Gorged Slashers have a +10 XP bonus over Flesh Drones and Slashers, is this 10 XP bonus to be applied to all such duplicate Otherworld monsters?
 
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George
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Not sure this is FAQ worthy, but:

Quote:
Rancher - Sharpshooter - Any time you kill an Enemy with a Gun, you may immediately do D6 Damage to another Enemy in one of the three spaces behind it.

Gunslinger - Through Shot - Any time you kill an Enemy with a [single hand] Gun, you may immediately do D6 Damage to another Enemy in one of the three spaces behind it.

Cowboy - Trick Shooting - Use 1 Grit when you cause a Hit with a Gun, to immediately cause an additional D3 other Enemies in a continuous chain, starting adjacent to the target, to also take a single Hit from that Gun.

Are these considered Splash damage? My instinct is No, but I couldn't define exactly why as they are "a type of extra Damage done as a by-product to other models nearby the original Target model of an Attack."

Also Cowboy seems to have the problematic wording that Through Shot used to have (cascading with Plasma Arc).

I guess that's why I would guess they aren't splash. These abilities seem more like getting an extra attack (with the original wording of extra Hit) than just causing extra damage to those nearby.
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George
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Another one:

Quote:
Outlaw’s Gun Belt - You may ignore the penalty for Dual Wielding 2 [one hand] Guns.

Bandido’s Twin Guns “You may fire two [one hand] Guns per turn with no penalty for the off-hand Gun.

With an extra hand, do these also remove the penalty to triple wielding or two-hand/one-hand wielding?

I would think it has to be a Yes, but maybe not.
 
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Neil Edmonds
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Is Sharpshooter, Through Shot, Trick Shooting splash damage ADDED
Three Hands dual wielding + item - ADDED

Thank you for the list Philip. I added it to the question. When the Otherworld Threat card lists an amount like +10 XP, you add it to whatever's on the enemy threat cards, so it would scale whether the regular or brutal version of the enemy is used. I can't quite remember, but I think the regular restless dead have 2 HP and the Shadows of the Damned have 1 HP, so maybe that explains the XP difference, but I agree with the sentiment that players should expect the Otherworld Threats to be tougher and therefore worth more XP.

I have a feeling the answer for 3 handed wielding will be no for the following reasons. The cards specifically mention 2 single-handed guns, so the rifle plus pistol case is definitely out because the gun belt or ability wouldn't help. As far as three pistols goes, the hero still only has 1 brain and coordinating 3 limbs would be tough (again, the ability and items say 2 guns). The interesting case though, is whether a Bandito with an Outlaw's Gun Belt could stack the abilities to make the combination work. Plus, there's the case of the brace of mutant pistols (5 shots) that might be able to critical, although an argument could be made that the mutant pistols are specially designed and play balance is maintained because 5 shots is less than packing 3 Peacemaker pistols (9 shots).
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Jee Fu
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The Mutant Quarter's Brace of Three Pistols is a single, Three-Handed Weapon. It is no different mechanically than a Shotgun or Rifle, except for the 3rd Hand requirement. Since the dual-wielding rules do not affect attacks made with a single weapon, the Brace can absolutely crit. Just because the theme indicates that it's separate weapons doesn't mean the mechanics do. It's one card with 3-Hands on it. If you can crit with a Rifle, you can crit with the Brace.

Put another way, if the card was instead called "Three-Handed Bazooka" would we be having this conversation? Probably not. This means that the confusion comes from the name of the weapon, which is cosmetic and therefore has zero affect on the mechanics.

EDIT: The Brace is a bad weapon if it can't crit. 6 Shots upgraded for 3 Hands is a basically what three of the worst 1-Handed guns in the game gets you, unupgaded. There would be no reason to buy this if it didn't crit.

- Jee
 
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Neil Edmonds
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Otherworld transportation ADDED
Acrobatic Dodge & Buffalo Charge ADDED
 
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Philip Jelley
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Do Allies take Damage equal to their Posse Level instead of their Hero Level if hit by the Sand Kraken's Shriek elite ability?
 
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Neil Edmonds
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1. What do you do in the cast of Dueling Minimums? Say you roll the General Store event that gives you $25 off purchases, limit of $25, and you want to buy a roll of Bandages. You also, however, have a Tentacle Mustache which grants you $10 off, minimum $10. Can you pay only $15 for Bandages, or must you pay $25?

The minimums are specified to prevent zero or negative cost items. As long as your adjustments don't take the price down to zero, I say go for it. It'd be $25 minimum for a normal hero, but your epic tentacle mustache is weirdly disquieting, so the general store owner throws in an extra discount.

Quote:
2. When fighting an Undead Gunslinger Challenge, do you still make HBTD rolls or not (I'm REALLY hoping the answer is not, otherwise it is way too hard).

No, you don't. Time is considered to have stopped while you duke it out with the gunslinger.

Quote:
3. Say I have a posse consisting of a Dark Stone Shaman and Samurai, neither of whom can use Explosives. Could I still play the "Blow the Mine" Mission or not?

Heroes are always allowed to complete the mission requirements, it's the same reason Jason Hill said you can't use artifacts to skip the Epic fight at the end of a mission. You have to do the things the mission tells you to do.

Quote:
Do Allies take Damage equal to their Posse Level instead of their Hero Level if hit by the Sand Kraken's Shriek elite ability?

I haven't read the ally rules, so I don't have a definitive answer. My initial impression would be to use the posse level because the ally level doesn't impact other aspects of enemies, such as the number of elite abilities, so the shriek shouldn't be any different; it's dangerous accompanying the posse into the mines. I'll look at the rules the next time I play and update this post if it's needed.
 
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Jee Fu
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The Sand Kraken question (regarding Allies) is an important one. There are a lot of abilities and effects that reference the Hero Level and there are basically no rules for defining what that means in terms of Allies. You might argue that each "level-up" of an Ally is +1 Hero Level, and you also might argue that using the Veteran version of an Ally is also +1 Hero Level. Since there are 6 possible upgrades, this is a total of +7 Levels which gets you to "Hero Level 8", just like a non-Ally. But this is 100% speculation (and I'm not sure a fully upgraded Henchman could survive an 8th Level attack anyway), so it would be good to get this cleared up.

This isn't the only thing we need cleared up about Allies. They count as Heroes for every effect/mechanic that isn't in the list of exceptions listed on their rules sheet. But this list isn't as comprehensive as it could be. For instance, there are times when Allies could find themselves drawing Scavenge cards due to participating in Encounters; there is no rule against this, but they can't gain XP and they can't gain loot so it becomes fiddly. In addition, we know that every 3 Allies adds +1 Hero to the Posse Hero Total, but unlike the Posse Level, there is no indication that this can't change mid-Adventure. If it CAN change, then what do you if you go from 5->4 Heroes? Do you lose a Revive Token? What if you've spent it already? Do you go down to Medium threats? What if the opposite happens - what if you find Allies during a mission and it's enough to push the Hero count up? This isn't a problem without Allies, because Heroes can't enter/leave the Adventure mid-mission; Allies totally can.

On a non-Ally note, I would like to know if the Rancher's Rapid Shot works on 3-Handed Guns (like the Brace of Pistols). Note that I'm NOT asking if it works on 3-Hand's worth of Guns - just if it's supposed to work on all Guns that require at least 2 Hands, or only on Guns that require exactly 2 Hands. The Wandering Samurai ruling in the FAQ regarding Silent Traveler has me wondering since it's a similar thing.

- Jee
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Neil Edmonds
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It sounds like allies were half-baked then. cry

Quote:
For instance, there are times when Allies could find themselves drawing Scavenge cards due to participating in Encounters; there is no rule against this, but they can't gain XP and they can't gain loot so it becomes fiddly.

Scavenge cards can still do bad things. Maybe adding more people in an enclosed space is supposed to attract additional unwanted attention?

How does these work as potential questions about allies?

What effect does the addition or subtraction of allies during the adventure have on the threat level, posse level, enemy elite abilities, and effects that depend on the size of the posse (revive tokens, mission goals, etc.)?

Commentary: This is an important rules question because the game didn't support adding heroes during a mission before, but now multiple allies can create this ambiguous situation.

Since allies can't gain XP or loot, do they have to draw Scavenge cards if instructed to do so because they're behaving like heroes?

Since allies are treated like heroes, do the following effects apply: [list here]?

[It's important to provide a list of specific instances because Jason Hill's already provided a list of things that don't apply, so this question is really updating the existing list.]

Do we have a better weapon to use for the rancher rapid shot question? As worded, this goes back to Jee's early comment about "unfortunate" names and critical hits. Based on the name "Brace of Mutant Pistols", you'd assume 3 single handed pistols (although it could be more or less, maybe the modifications require a third hand); but I wouldn't ever think a pistol is a rifle, even if it had a ridiculously long barrel.



 
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Jee Fu
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Autoduelist wrote:


How does these work as potential questions about allies?

What effect does the addition or subtraction of allies during the adventure have on the threat level, posse level, enemy elite abilities, and effects that depend on the size of the posse (revive tokens, mission goals, etc.)?

Commentary: This is an important rules question because the game didn't support adding heroes during a mission before, but now multiple allies can create this ambiguous situation.
This is great, but you can take out "Posse Level" as we know for sure that the RAW says this is set at the Start of the Adventure.

Autoduelist wrote:

Do we have a better weapon to use for the rancher rapid shot question? As worded, this goes back to Jee's early comment about "unfortunate" names and critical hits. Based on the name "Brace of Mutant Pistols", you'd assume 3 single handed pistols (although it could be more or less, maybe the modifications require a third hand); but I wouldn't ever think a pistol is a rifle, even if it had a ridiculously long barrel.
No, but the Rifle is not specifically mentioned in the Rancher's ability (unlike the Marshal's similar ability). It just says "Two-handed Gun". A Sawed-Off Shotgun has a short barrel, but mechanically works with this ability because its 2-Handed. The mechanical categorization for the Brace is no different than some theoretical Tri-Zooka: One Item with Keyword Gun, 3 Hands. All abilities that make references to those qualifiers should treat them the same way.

We know the Brace is one item for all kinds of reasons:
- it has 1 Anvil (how would divide this??)
- it has one set of Sockets
- its listing on the Town card is identical to all other items (which are presumably also one item a piece)

If it's one item, then it's one Gun mechanically.

Unfortunately, I think the Brace is the only one. For now. But you can phrase the question generally - "Does Rapid Shot work with Three-Handed Guns?" and that should get us there, right?

- Jee
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Neil Edmonds
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Quote:
This is great, but you can take out "Posse Level" as we know for sure that the RAW says this is set at the Start of the Adventure.

I suggested posse level because of all the talk about additional allies increasing the [party] level. Mechanically, until we get an answer, it might be reasonable to apply the same rule to allies - the level is set when the party enters the mines.

New Allies Section - ADDED
Allies impact on level-based game effects mid-mission ADDED
Ally scavenging ADDED
Rapid Shot 3 Handed Guns ADDED

I couldn't add the "like heroes" ally question because we don't have list yet.

There are some good questions on this thread. I hope we see an update to the FAQ in a month or two when all the Kickstarter backers have gotten their copies. I'm sure the additional players will reveal some issues that should be officially addressed.

 
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Jee Fu
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Autoduelist wrote:
Quote:
This is great, but you can take out "Posse Level" as we know for sure that the RAW says this is set at the Start of the Adventure.

I suggested posse level because of all the talk about additional allies increasing the [party] level. Mechanically, until we get an answer, it might be reasonable to apply the same rule to allies - the level is set when the party enters the mines.
That is what I'm currently doing, but it can really unbalance the game if 3 Henchies die in the first room (as they try oh so desperately to do every single game). This effectively dooms the posse to a much more difficult experience - but hey, challenge accepted. I do think its worth an official ruling tho.

- Jee
 
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Joe Price
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For posse levels and numbers, I would just keep it simple - they're all set at the beginning of the adventure and don't change due to circumstances of the game. If members die, the level of cards drawn (high, medium, low) doesn't change. If allies die, there is no change. If you happen to find an ally during the adventure that happens to hit one of the thresholds (set of 3), then just take it as fortuitous chance and move on with the game. After, we don't try to adjust the game for what treasure you find, and that can have a much bigger impact than one ally. (Except for the comical effect - those henchmen are frequently the stars of the episode, or at least on in particular who refused to die with his multiple faceless heads that always seems to lead us well.)

If YOU decide to add an adventurer mid-stream, I would change the threat level drawn. There are no rules for handling that, but do we really need them?
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1. Is doubling Health, such as for El Tejon's Bandits, done before any pluses to Health or afterward?

2. Is doubling damage, such as from a Silver Bullet to a Beast, done before or after any pluses to the damage?

3. Since Brutal Necronauts are immune to Explosives, are they also immune to the Void Grenade and its created vortex?

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Neil Edmonds
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Doubled health & damage ADDED
Is a Vortex Grenade an explosive ADDED
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Jee Fu
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I just had a minor revelation. The wording on the FAQ regarding +Damage specifically excludes Hits that come from things other than a To-Hit roll. For instance, we were talking about Righteous Fury's interaction with Cleansing Fire. Upon further consideration, I'm changing my opinion on this - Cleansing Fire deals Hits, but those Hits don't come from To-Hit rolls, so they can't benefit from +Damage effects at all (include Righteous Fury).

But this brings up another important interaction that needs further FAQing. The FAQ current says this:

Damage modifiers may only be applied on Damage to a model from a successful To Hit roll assigned to that model.

There are exceptions for things that specifically mention Attacks, as well as for Splash Damage. But there are a lot of extra-Hit-generating secondary effects in the game that happen as a result of assigning a To-Hit roll, but that don't fall under the category of Splash Damage. Are these affected by +Damage? For example, the Plasma Arc (srsly this thing needs a re-work for all the trouble it's caused). It says that "each Hit counts as 2 Hits to the Target and 1 Hit to all Enemies Adjacent to the Target". How does this interact with +Damage? Is the damage from ALL of these Hits considered to be coming "from a successful To-Hit Roll assigned to that model?" Cause you don't get to assign the Hits that the actual damage comes from, so how ... does work?

Another example is Enemy +Damage. Trederra has Weapons of War that are worded similarly to the Arc, in that To-Hit rolls generate additional Hits rather than direct damage. How does +Damage (generated by Elite Abilities, Darkness Cards, etc) work in this case? How does +Damage work for Flame Templates? There is no To-Hit roll, and so FAQ-as-written it doesn't get normal +Damage benefits - is this intentional?

We do have rules that deal with Splash Damage, but as you can see we don't have rules that describe +dmg interactions with "Splash Hits" and "Secondary Hits". I would welcome a more robust wording on what it means to resolve Hits that ... assign themselves, in general. You can decide where to put the initial Arc Hits, but instead of rolling dmg for them after assignment you instead ... have more Hits? That are assigned for you? How does this all fit with the current combat order of operations? And to make matter even MORE confounding, how does non+dmg Ammo work with these kinds of effects? Are these ALL Gun Hits? Can you assign Ricochet Shots to the initial Hit, or heck can you assign them to the secondary Hits and move them around instead of abiding by the Arc's placement instructions? What about Ammo that doubles damage rolled for a Hit? Do these act the same as +dmg (with a variable amount depending on the damage roll) - requiring the Hit to directly deal damage instead of just more Hits to gain the bonus - or could you put a Hellfire Shot on the initial Arc Hit and double the damage for all sub-Hits rolled?

Another example is the Cowboy's Trick Shooting Staring Upgrade. It too generates secondary Hits. How does this interact with a) +dmg and b) the freakin' Plasma Arc.

The Plasma Arc is evil. Deliver us.

- Jee
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1. A small number of scenarios have monsters enter the map through entry points. Void Hounds and Sand Crabs, however, appear adjacent to Heroes. In these scenarios, do these monsters instead enter the map through the entry points (this is especially important for Cynder's "Holding the Bridge" mission)?

2. If a Hell Cannon shows up in the "Town Overrun" Town Mission, will the wooden walls of the buildings stop a cannon ball's Travel Path, or will it keep going right through the wooden wall?

3. When you reach the level where you can hire Allies who have double Health and Sanity, are those also the Allies you receive through Gear cards? They would be pretty useless otherwise . . .

4. Monsters can pass through Lava tiles when moving with no penalty, but if shoved into the tile they can take damage. Do they also take damage if a tile appears under them, such as through Beli'al's power?

5. Do you draw from the Low Threat Mine deck when drawing for Sinister Experiments, rather than drawing from the deck in whatever Other World you might be in?

6. If a Hero is Entangled by a Sand Kraken, and the Beast then changes targets and moves across the entire tile to target a different Hero, is the first Hero still entangled?
 
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Secondary hits ADDED
Flame Template hits ADDED

Weighing in on the secondary hits, I'd apply the +Dmg modifiers - that's why they're called hits and not wounds (which would make them splash damage). I think the intent was to provide variable damage to other models: how much of the plasma arc hits multiple targets, whether the cowboy's bullet passes through one target and hits another (think Angelina Jolie's suicide shot at the end of Wanted or the classic Western trope of the bullet bouncing off multiple surfaces to disarm all the outlaws, etc.)

The reason +Dmg doesn't apply to sermons is that the preacher isn't making a to-hit roll against a moving target, the preacher's making a roll to see if the sermon does anything useful. Basically, some otherworldly power (heavily implied to be the Christian God) is making the actual attack, and that otherworldy power doesn't have your preacher's damage modifiers.
 
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